Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Cam Plate question

[Tom C]

Scenario: comparing the '97 year manual truck to a '97 auto.



the stock manual pump has 35HP more HP than a stock auto pump.



why is it that when you put a #10 plate in those pumps the manual pump would then have 110 HP more than the auto pump?



whats different in the pumps?



would a #5 plate in an manual truck blow the motor?



what would it take to make the auto pump as powerful as the manual pump?

 

[Forrest Nearing]

a #5 plate won't blow the motor...



you need at least a pyrometer to watch your EGT's so you don't start melting pistons...



boost and pyro gauges are pretty much the staples for keeping an eye on your engine.



the #5 won't necessarily hurt the engine if you don't let it get too hot, but it'll definately fry your transmission

 

[KLockliear]

The average 180hp 97 auto truck made about 160rwhp/420ft-lbs on our dyno. The 215hp 97 5-speed trucks made about 180rwhp/440ft-lbs. Adding our camplate would take either truck to roughly the same point ~ 230rwhp/650ft-lbs. So, the auto truck would gain more than the manual.



Now, that's not gospel, because moving the plate forward will yield more power, but if set in the stock location (as our direction indicate) that's what we would normally see.

 

[Tom C]

by looking at the charts from TST ans Peirs the 180 and 215 pumps would have much different power outputs with the same plate. I wonder why?



what would it take to make a 180 pump a 215? (delivery valves)??

 

[DonTX]

I would like to know also.

Excellent question, I don't have a clue, but would like to see the answer as well.

I have a plate in my 97 auto, I watch my boost and pyro closely when working it as they really start to wind up in a hurry. I am sure that is more than Dodge expected of its automatic transmission, but mine has been rebuilt hopefully to take the added HP and torque, and I drive it as carefully as I can to avoid excess transmission abuse.

 

[bmoeller]

The fuel injection pumps in the '96-'98 (215hp) manual and (180hp) auto trucks are built different. The 215 pumps use differernt plungers/barrels, and they move a lot more fuel. IIRC, the plungers in the 215 pumps have a double helix and the 180 pumps use a single.

 

[Tom C]

Bmueller,



Did you see/feel more performance when you added the 191's?



Why did you go with the #10 plate?



Don/Tx,



Does that #8 put out much smoke?

 

[The patriot]

I thought the 215 injectors were different.

 

[bmoeller]

Bmoeller,



Did you see/feel more performance when you added the 191's?



Why did you go with the #10 plate?

Felt a small increase in power, but the biggest gain I had, was being able to spool the turbo faster. Cut down on some of the lag. That, and plenty of more smoke for tailgaters. :-laf



Joe Donnelly recommended the #10 plate to me. It is a great towing plate. It has a half moon shaped profile. Makes it easier to control the EGTs, since the upper "ramp" eases back on the fuel on the top-end.

I thought the 215 injectors were different.

They are, but so are the fuel injection pumps.

 

[DonTX]

For Tom C: No smoke! I have tried and tried to get an on the floor pull that would at least smoke a LITTLE bit, no luck, no smoke, ever.

 

[Tom C]

Thanks for the info guys.



My last 12V was a '95 stick. I had a #10 in it with 3GSK and that truck would rocket with LOTS of smoke. It could burn rubber through 4th gear. I miss that truck but had to drop the stick due to a bad knee.



I put a #10, 3GSK and upped the timing to 15° on my current '97 truck last week just after moding the transmission to hold the power. Must say the truck runs alot harder but I don't think as hard as my old '95 and very little smoke. So I'm trying to figure my next move for more power. Hence my questions. Don't know if I want to go with a bigger plate. As you say Bmoeller the #10 is softer of the EGT's on the upper end. I'm thinking 370 injectors and 191 DV's. Owye, and getting rid of the muffler/gutting the cat.



with my current setup the the '97 will run the same times as my stock '05. Not good. I want to be able to pass even a modified '05 :-laf No problem with boost on the HX35, it boost up real fast. Matter-o-fact it the fastest moving boost I've seen.





Cheers,



Tom C



PS: This '97 other than being stock when I got it had gauages already installed. I usually put the pyro pre-turbo but this one is post turbo. temps are running 900° with the throttle on the floor. Anyone know what that would be pre-turbo??

 

[bmoeller]

Don't know if I want to go with a bigger plate. As you say Bmoeller the #10 is softer of the EGT's on the upper end. I'm thinking 370 injectors and 191 DV's.

EGTs are lower than they would be with a more agressive plate. Your stock turbo won't handle the fuel with that combo. The PDR 40 like mine won't be big enough for towing, if the plate is slid full forward.



If you can swing it, I'd get some Stage 3 injector from a company like DDP, for instance. The 370s don't have the right spray angle for our piston bowl shape. They are marine injectors.



My EGTs are the same, or slightly lower than they were with the 370s, and I make more power.

No problem with boost on the HX35, it boost up real fast. Matter-o-fact it the fastest moving boost I've seen.

PS: I usually put the pyro pre-turbo but this one is post turbo. temps are running 900° with the throttle on the floor. Anyone know what that would be pre-turbo??

Will need more turbo, for more power. Probably close to 1200* pre-turbo. Read this-

 

[Neibe]

The average 180hp 97 auto truck made about 160rwhp/420ft-lbs on our dyno. The 215hp 97 5-speed trucks made about 180rwhp/440ft-lbs. Adding our camplate would take either truck to roughly the same point ~ 230rwhp/650ft-lbs. So, the auto truck would gain more than the manual.



Now, that's not gospel, because moving the plate forward will yield more power, but if set in the stock location (as our direction indicate) that's what we would normally see.

Why would a 5-speed lose 35 hp at the rear wheels and a auto only lose 20hp. I would think the slushbox would lose more due to increase friction in the transmission. My truck dyno'd 190 in stock form at a Cummins Service center.

 

[Cooker]

I usually put the pyro pre-turbo but this one is post turbo. temps are running 900° with the throttle on the floor. Anyone know what that would be pre-turbo??

When running both a pre and post turbo probe, when pushing the truck hard I would see a difference as much as 500 degress. While cruising around the difference between pre and post was sometimes as low as 200 degrees.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

In my dyno testing on a Dynojet 248C, the 215 hp made 207, and the 180 made 178 hp. The stock 215 plate is richer, and the plungers and barrels give more fuel per amount of rack travel. Also the 215 injectors are bigger than 180s. The more rack travel, the more the 215 hp engine's hp lead increases over the 180. The torque plate controls the maximum amount of rack travel. A rich plate like a 10 therefore, lets the 215 hp dyno at 345 while the 180 will never get over about 280 with just a torque plate on the otherwise stock 180 engine parts. Around 170-180 hp it becomes very important to go to more turbo, at least the 16 cm2 exhaust housing on the stock HX35 turbo, to control egt's and get more exhaust flow. You might have trouble making the full 345 hp without the bigger housing, for example.

 

[Tom C]

Hi joe,



I've been shooting for 350HP. My original plan was:



#10 plate

3GSK

15. 5° Timing

191 DV's

370 Injectors

open exhaust





I've done the #10, 3GSK and timing (15°). I don't know if the DV's will make much of a difference and It seems 370 will burn too hot. so I may drop the DV's and go with some DD3's or equivalent.



What other changes do you sugest to get to 350HP on a 180 Pump?



the other night I adjusted the govenor lever and moved the came plate full forward. I lost smoke, power and EGT's by doing that. I adjusted the lever some more and got some of the power back. But I'm thinking the plate may be to far forward.



I forgot to pull up on the fuel solinoid the first time I adjusted the lever. The second time I think it was still too low. It would contact the bottom of the plate but not make contact with the AFC. third times a charm . It touches the bottum of the plate and the AFC. Power is back but still not where it was when I started. So thats why I think the cam plate is too far forwrad.



EGT's were 900° post turbo at full throttle. now 700° .

 

[The patriot]

I think your original plan should put you in the ballpark of 350.

The 370's should be fine, but I have 370's with a completely stock engine (except a BHAF) and theyre a little rich at idle. (215 engine)

370's make beaucoup HP cheaply. If you dont want a slight haze @ idle go with the expensive injectors.

You should make sure your trans is up to it, and you might want the 16cm2 turbo housing.

I'm no expert, this is just my . 02

Eric

 

[surfbeetle]

So how does this all effect us with engines for California, my 95 stick came with a 175 hp engine and the autos of that year were 160 hp. I have #5 plate and the truck runs GREAT! Never having been on a dyno, just curious to see if I did get the 300hp and 600 ft lbs of torque that TST claims.

 

[Dave M]

So how does this all effect us with engines for California, my 95 stick came with a 175 hp engine and the autos of that year were 160 hp. I have #5 plate and the truck runs GREAT! Never having been on a dyno, just curious to see if I did get the 300hp and 600 ft lbs of torque that TST claims.

I believe with the Calif truck you will be limited in HP by the EGR which restricts the fuel flow. I bought my 97 5 spd from Texas and it does not have EGR. My non-calf 97 was 215 HP and I think the 97 Calf was 165 Hp (5 spd).



Someone correct me if I'm wrong and maybe expand on the limitations (if any) by the EGR Calf trucks.



dave

 

[Cooker]

I believe with the Calif truck you will be limited in HP by the EGR which restricts the fuel flow. I bought my 97 5 spd from Texas and it does not have EGR. My non-calf 97 was 215 HP and I think the 97 Calf was 165 Hp (5 spd).



Someone correct me if I'm wrong and maybe expand on the limitations (if any) by the EGR Calf trucks.



dave

The 96-98 5 speed California trucks were 180HP.



As far as I know the 1995 CA trucks did not have EGR or reduced emissions.