Can't find cure for death wobble

[KevinO]

I installed the dual stabilizer and have drove pretty hard on some of the spots that gave me problems and so far it hasn't done it. knock on wood. I have also noticed 3 of my lug studs have broke two on front and one on the back. I use a torque wrench to 130 ft-lbs and put antiseize on them. Tire guy is trying to tell me Nitto is the same as the Toyo's??

 

[Kry226]

Despite all the naysayers, I've had 315 BFG's on my truck since the day after I drove it home and haven't had any hint of DW. Put 60k miles on the first set and now on my second. I don't disagree in some instances it could be the tires, but to make a generalization that BFG's are the problem seems ignorant to me.

I am in the same boat as wyosteve. 2nd set with over 55k on BFG 315's. Never a hint of DW. KORE w/ positive caster at 5 degrees. 50 psi up front.

While there's no doubt that D rated tires can exacerbate a problem, there are plenty examples of DW on completely stock trucks.

I for one am very curious about the leveling kit. If its the block or puck type, all bets are off.

I would also make sure those tires are properly Road Force balanced.

 

[JCleary]

I had Toyo 35's on my '03 and no problems...



I then switched to H2's with BFG 315's. Still no problem. I then sold my truck. The new owner called me when the truck had about 65k-70k miles on it asking about death wobble. I told him I never had a problem. He tried dual steering stabilizers, but they did no good on his truck.



When I had the truck the ball joints were starting to get a little tired. I'm sure his death wobble is due to worn suspension parts, be it the ball joints, tie-rod ends, track bar, etc. I suggested he replace the parts starting with the ball joints, but he's still just driving it.



I think the wobble is a combination of the 315's and worn suspension parts. At least that's my theory with my old '03.

 

[GColeman]

Despite all the naysayers, I've had 315 BFG's on my truck since the day after I drove it home and haven't had any hint of DW. Put 60k miles on the first set and now on my second. I don't disagree in some instances it could be the tires, but to make a generalization that BFG's are the problem seems ignorant to me.

I ran 285 BFGs on my 97 CTD for about 110,000 with no problems. I am now on my second set of 315/70 R17 BFGs on this truck (just turned 54K). They have always balanced great, worn very well and the truck has been as solid as the day I bought it.



Just before my warranty was about to go away, I had the truck at the dealer checking on an ATF leak. The trans had been slightly overfilled causing a minor leak. While checking out the truck, the tech discovered I needed a new Track Bar and steering box. The tech did mention that the steering box could cause DW. So far, I have avoided it. Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.

 

[KevinO]

I installed the tires at a dodge dealership that has road force balancing and they only had 18 lbs of resistance. In those terms they seem good. The 2" lift is from Top Guns automotive, it's the steel spacer.

 

[Task125]

I have had 96,98. 5,03 and now an 06 dodge. I have never had a problem with DW until this 06. got it with 26,000 and stock tires. dealer did the tsb on it, tie rod ends and steering stabilizer and it went away.

Just put the toyos on today so lets see what happens now

 

[Kry226]

I installed the tires at a dodge dealership that has road force balancing and they only had 18 lbs of resistance. In those terms they seem good. The 2" lift is from Top Guns automotive, it's the steel spacer.

The spacer is a definite weak link in the suspension. And while it may not directly cause DW, I am sure it doesn't help. I know you may not have money to throw at this thing, but I would get some real coils from KORE or Lorenz, Carli, etc. I don't think you can really afford not to though, when it comes to DW. Probably cheaper than a new set of tires as well.

 

[brods]

The spacer is a definite weak link in the suspension. And while it may not directly cause DW, I am sure it doesn't help. I know you may not have money to throw at this thing, get some real coils fro KORE or Lorenz, Carli, etc. I don't think you can really afford not to though, when it comes to DW. Probably cheaper than a new set of tires as well.

Why do you say the spacer is the "weak link" in the suspension? All it does is move the spring seat downward, how does that cause problems? If I had to guess the problem is more likely that people install the spacers and then do not get an alignment to correct for the change in ride height. That said I am open to any theories on why the spacer causes problems.



Anybody running the spacers on an otherwise stock truck and having DW issues?

 

[Kry226]

Why do you say the spacer is the "weak link" in the suspension? All it does is move the spring seat downward, how does that cause problems? If I had to guess the problem is more likely that people install the spacers and then do not get an alignment to correct for the change in ride height. That said I am open to any theories on why the spacer causes problems.



Anybody running the spacers on an otherwise stock truck and having DW issues?

A few years ago, this topic was the catalyst for pages and pages of discussions. Read the info below that can also be found at this page: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/3rd-generation-ram-forum-no-engine-transmission-discussions/132063-help-death-wobble.html#post1233287

As for spacers vs. coils for lift/travel - bigger (not just taller) coils work better for a lot of reasons - the main one being that the positions of your lower spring perches (on the axle housing) change relative to the upper spring perches (on the frame) as the suspension cycles. The control arms move on an arc that shifts the lower perch fore to aft, and the track bar moves these perches left to right, so the spring has to absorb this somewhat circular movement. If you use a spacer in conjunction with the OE coil you force the coil into an unnatural position. The lower perches are moved back and to the driver's side and the upper perches are effectively lowered straight down causing some weird geometry. This weird geometry is better absorbed by a long, stout coil because the entire coil can flex about. The ideal situation from a wheel-travel standpoint is a coil-over that permits the spring to be constantly aligned and bearings (heims) at each end of the coil carrier to account for cross-lateral deflection etc. There's a lot more to it than this, but I can feel myself starting to geek out, so I'll cut this subject short.

Regardless of how you feel about Kent Kroeker, his business practices, his suspensions, or prices, its very hard to deny that this guy knows (and has probably forgotten) more about Dodge suspensions than most.



Bottom line is that no one thing causes DW. Its a combination of many factors, and any one of those factors may be just the one that pushes the suspension over the edge and into DW.

 

[brods]

Interesting, but I have a hard time envisioning the spacers causing spring problems that then translate into DW. The theory that the stock suspension is somehow out of wack with the spacers is bunk. My stock truck with the snow plow prep sits level. To my knowledge all the suspension components are the same except for the front springs. No different alignment settings are listed in the manual either. So according to the spacer theory, if I swapped out the stock snow plow springs for regular springs with spacers I'd be risking DW? Someone would have to prove that somehow before I'd believe it.

.....

Bottom line is that no one thing causes DW. Its a combination of many factors, and any one of those factors may be just the one that pushes the suspension over the edge and into DW.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[TCDiesel]

I installed the dual stabilizer and have drove pretty hard on some of the spots that gave me problems and so far it hasn't done it. knock on wood. I have also noticed 3 of my lug studs have broke two on front and one on the back. I use a torque wrench to 130 ft-lbs and put antiseize on them. Tire guy is trying to tell me Nitto is the same as the Toyo's??

Just a suggestion, Remove all the Lugs and wheels,Use Brake cleaner or equivalent to remove all the anti-seize and re-torque to 140/150lbs drive 10 to 20 miles and re-torque if you pull or carry heavy loads check lugs after initial heavy load. this will not stop the DW , but it will stop the studs from sapping off.

 

[TCDiesel]

Bought a dual stabilizer going to put it on tonight and see what happens. Toyo 285/75r17's are on backorder and not available for months. I'm going to try one thing at a time to see what fixes it. Thanks for all the ideas to try till it's gone.

Last Time Chris check We had 40 of these in stock 285/75-17, I will have to check on Monday when I return... Keep checking. .

 

[Kry226]

Interesting, but I have a hard time envisioning the spacers causing spring problems that then translate into DW. The theory that the stock suspension is somehow out of wack with the spacers is bunk. My stock truck with the snow plow prep sits level. To my knowledge all the suspension components are the same except for the front springs. No different alignment settings are listed in the manual either. So according to the spacer theory, if I swapped out the stock snow plow springs for regular springs with spacers I'd be risking DW? Someone would have to prove that somehow before I'd believe it.

Would you be risking DW with spacers? I don't know. Maybe. I am sure that it doesn't help. I do know three things:



1. When one of the pioneers of the aftermarket Dodge (diesel targeted) suspensions talks about strengths and weaknesses of these suspensions and how its all related, I AM GOING TO LISTEN. Don't know your suspension knowledge or background, but I fully admit that these guys know more than I do about suspension geometry. Listen if you want brother, your call.



2. When all other components in a problem suspension check out and I am down to looking at spacers or tires, I am going to replace spacers with coils as most of the time they'll be cheaper than a quality set of replacement tires, especially in a 33"-35" range used with these trucks.



3. I don't have DW and never have. Admittedly, I don't drive my 7k lb truck like a sports car either.



Remember, there are plenty of folks who run the BFG 315s without issue. You only hear about the problems on these boards, where they concentrate.

 

[brods]

I'm sorry if you feel I'm not paying the proper respect to your god of suspension, he certainly knows more about suspension than I do. But, if you read carefully what he wrote, he is saying taller and bigger springs work better than stock springs with spacers. Sounds reasonable. He does not say the spacers cause DW nor that they are related to DW. And just because something is "better" doesn't mean something else will not work. Our entire trucks are compromises which allows the aftermarket guys, like Kroeker, sell us improved components.



He also makes it sound like the lift from the spacers causes "weird geometry". That means my totally stock truck has this "weird geometry" straight from the factory. I think he is stretching things just a bit with that comment. You have to remember his focus is on long travel, high performance suspension where the geometries get far different than stock and offroad performance has priority. From that perspective specially designed springs are clearly preferable to stock springs with spacers. Anyhow, the lift from the spacers must be in the operational window envisioned by the Dodge designers or, if it is not, then any truck with the snow plow prep is a rolling freak of nature and operating in some weird geometric zone.



So, while it might be possible that the spacers are an influencing factor in DW, no one has supplied any proof or a sound logical argument to support that position. Just one more in the huge pile of DW theories.

 

[Regcabguy]

Many years ago Mr. Kroeker stated to me that the highest instances of DW he'd dealt with was with the BFG's. It must be noted,however, that I have never read of BFG caused DW issues on the Ford sites. I think with these Dodge's we need everything going for us including a precision built tire of your choice.

 

[brods]

When I was looking into DW several years ago a BFG engineer said they make their tires ever so slightly cone shape to take up any slack in the steering and suspension. He said that is why its important to have the same sidewall facing out on all the tires. If they still do it and if other tire manufacturers don't do it then might that be a factor for the BFGs contributing to DW?? It would be interesting to see if reversing the tires on the rims (putting the opposite sidewall facing out) effects the DW.



Take the slight pull built into the tires and now factor in the comments from jelag. What jelag is talking about is scrub radius and it can make the tire want to pull one way or the other. So depending on how the two pulls add or cancel out, the ideal toe setting may need to be adjusted differently from the stock specs.

 

[Kry226]

I'm sorry if you feel I'm not paying the proper respect to your god of suspension, he certainly knows more about suspension than I do. But, if you read carefully what he wrote, he is saying taller and bigger springs work better than stock springs with spacers. Sounds reasonable. He does not say the spacers cause DW nor that they are related to DW. And just because something is "better" doesn't mean something else will not work. Our entire trucks are compromises which allows the aftermarket guys, like Kroeker, sell us improved components.



He also makes it sound like the lift from the spacers causes "weird geometry". That means my totally stock truck has this "weird geometry" straight from the factory. I think he is stretching things just a bit with that comment. You have to remember his focus is on long travel, high performance suspension where the geometries get far different than stock and offroad performance has priority. From that perspective specially designed springs are clearly preferable to stock springs with spacers. Anyhow, the lift from the spacers must be in the operational window envisioned by the Dodge designers or, if it is not, then any truck with the snow plow prep is a rolling freak of nature and operating in some weird geometric zone.



So, while it might be possible that the spacers are an influencing factor in DW, no one has supplied any proof or a sound logical argument to support that position. Just one more in the huge pile of DW theories.

I have no loyalty to Kroeker and he certainly isn't a God to me. I have no brand loyalty to him or anyone else, but I believe the dude knows his stuff and not one person has been able to prove his R&D or his knowledge and insight as inadequate. He did not say that spacers cause DW, nor did I. But I think he explained the inflexibility within the geometry that spacers add to the mix pretty well though. The problem isn't the lift provided by the spacers.



I don't care what anybody does, or what they believe. Do what you want. You want spacers? Use spacers. I was simply trying to be helpful to the guy with the problem and point out that, like another poster pointed out, targeting the BFGs by themselves is ignorant. But saying that spacers and stock springs and their function are equivalent to your snow plow prep springs is also ignorant.



Any way you look at it, it still makes more sense dropping $5-600 on a pair of coils than up to $1k on a new set of tires.

 

[brods]

Relax, we are all just looking for answers. Either methodical testing or clear, logical engineering explanations are needed to separate the likely causes from the huge number of theories that are floating around.



Kent’s post sure reads like he was saying the lift screwed up the geometry making it “weird” which then the stock spring with the spacer can’t handle. Kent’s comments are food for thought, but by no means are proof of any problems caused by spacers. He would need to elaborate more on what the negative effects from the spacers would be, like metal fatigue from compressing the stock spring too much, and then explain how that translates into an effect on DW, if there even is one. So why would anybody drop $500-$600 (your numbers) on springs without having a clue if they will do any good? Before buying springs, why not simply take the spacers out and see what happens?

 

[Kry226]

So why would anybody drop $500-$600 (your numbers) on springs without having a clue if they will do any good? Before buying springs, why not simply take the spacers out and see what happens?

Yeah, he could do that too. But he won't be happy, as I am sure he wants the added lift or he wouldn't have done the spacers in the first place. But that rationale goes the same for replacing a whole set of tires without knowing if it would help. I am confident there are many more guys with the 315s and no issues than there are 315s with issues.



Also, did the original poster drop the front sway bar back into its original geometry with blocks or extended links? I'll admit that I had taller coils for several months before I installed the billet drop blocks and still never had DW issues.



Of course, from his lack of participation the last couple of days, I am wondering what KevinO's status is.

 

[brods]

See his post #21

I installed the dual stabilizer and have drove pretty hard on some of the spots that gave me problems and so far it hasn't done it. knock on wood. I have also noticed 3 of my lug studs have broke two on front and one on the back. I use a torque wrench to 130 ft-lbs and put antiseize on them. Tire guy is trying to tell me Nitto is the same as the Toyo's??