Cat and Cummins view for the future

[esommer2500]

My Dad recently started working for a Kenworth dealership as an outside parts sales rep. While working on my brother's Scout today, we started talking about the future of diesel engines with the stringent standards that are being forced on the heavy duty diesel engine market. A Cat rep had visited the dealership and they started talking about the subject. Cat is introducing twin turbos as well as different head designs, etc. Cummins is using VGT technology as well as EGR, etc.



http://www.caterpillar.com/products/engines_n_power_systems/shared/truck_engines/truck_engines.html



OK, this post doesn't take you to what I wanted to show you. So, click on News, and then the last report on March 19, 2003 "On-Highway Engine Line With ACERT Technology" Scroll down the page and there are some pics of the C11, C13, and C15 with their twins.



http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/trucks/isx.cfm



There is alot more going on here than I can comprehend, but my Dad and I both agreed that unless the public is educated about diesel engines, things are going to go downhill in a hurry.



What are your thoughts?



Eric

 

[Pit Bull]

I think the tree huggers are going to ruin business in this country and they will be the first to complain when a roll of toilet paper cost them $5. 00

 

[rspinks]

they will be the first to complain when a roll of toilet paper cost them $5. 00

I think they just use leaves.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by rspinks

I think they just use leaves.

:-laf :-laf You got me with that one.

 

[Morphious]

could always use the spotted owl and turn it into a common brown owl.....



Morph.

 

[bmoeller]

Originally posted by rspinks

I think they just use leaves.

They can't, it's supper!

 

[esommer2500]

Ok, we have established that those that are ignorant of the diesel world will/may eventually bring the noose to such a point that the economy will suffer tremendously when over-the-road diesel trucking is no longer a viable option. What about other industries that rely on diesel power? Construction, railroads, manufacturing, mining, marine, etc.



What do you think of the advancements that are being made to these engines in an effort to make them conform to the new stringent standards? In particular, what will the effects of EGR on EVERY diesel have? What do twin turbos and VGT have in store? What about head and cam design? Catalytic converters? What about alternative fuels like soydiesel, or the additions of running propane or other alternative fuels in addition to regular diesel? There are also lubricity issues with the lowered cetane and sulfer numbers that are pointed out in the new standards.



Cat and Cummins are clearly applying quite a bit of time and money to stay in business and ahead of all of these challenges. What will happen when it simply comes to a point that they can no longer profit? Are we bound to see nuclear engines in OTR trucks?



Finally, what is going to be done to increase the awareness of diesel engines to the general public (include tree huggers, hippies, whatever you want to call the diesel-ignorant)?



Eric

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by rspinks
I think they just use leaves.

They wipe?

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Morphious
could always use the spotted owl and turn it into a common brown owl.....

Morph.

Or a rabbit.

Brings to mind the joke about the bear and the rabbit, the bear asking the rabbit if s... tuff sticks to its fur... .

Fest3er

 

[Chipstien]

:-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[GHinton]

Originally posted by fest3er

Or a rabbit.



Brings to mind the joke about the bear and the rabbit, the bear asking the rabbit if s... tuff sticks to its fur... .



Fest3er

Fest3er, would that be Jay Hickman?

 

[R.E. Miller]

The future of diesel engines will follow that of the gasoline engine until the diesel too, hits the point of maximum efficiency. "Mechanical" will be the word of old timers, ECM will even become a dated term, and fuzzy logic will clear up quite a bit. I have to admit that I am a mechanical man, I just get along better with the way mechanical engines work. However, after working on diesels everyday, it is blinding as to how helpful electronics and developments in diesel technology help everyone every day. For instance, compare the operation of an N-14 Celect engine to that of it's 855 father. You almost have to hands down give it to the N-14 due to the way diesel technology has aided operation. You can always argue about the way an 855 can go a zillion miles when taken care of with nary a problem, or talk about how good they run, but all around, the N-14 wins.



EGR is a fad to pacify the treehugger generation. Caterpillar is headed in the right direction provided that they have one (they haven't quite shown a clear on yet, but I trust that a company like their's won't bluff) and all others will be forced to follow. VGT is here to stay, not that it does not have problems, but the idea really kicks, and works real well when all is going right. I think that time will prove that "regenerating" EGR coolers are a just another service item, and if OEM's and engine manufacturers don't get together and stop producing abortions to work on, there will be a huge shortage of mechanics, if you can call them that.



. 02 Cents

Russell

 

[esommer2500]

"Mechanical" will be the word of old timers, ECM will even become a dated term

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. When I first got my Dodge, I was a little upset that I wasn't able to find an affordable 24v, but once I started doing research and working on the truck by myself, I thank my stars I ended up with the truck that I did. I have a general dislike of computers, especially in engines. Besides that, the mechanics of these engines blows my mind. Your comparison of the N-14 to the 855 is interesting, and you bring up some good points.

if OEM's and engine manufacturers don't get together and stop producing abortions to work on, there will be a huge shortage of mechanics, if you can call them that.

No kidding.



Eric

 

[waterdonkey]

I too do not like electronics under my hood. If I had a choice I would definitely chose a 12V. I bought an 02 just because of the reconfiguring of the 03. (no flame intended)



What I don't understand is... ... ..... The 12V get better mileage than the 24V and the 03 generation, at least 5 + MPG, how can the EPA justify this... ... . yes "cleaner" exhaust but at the cost of more fuel used per MPG.



I heard yesterday that the CAFE is to be raised on light trucks by 1. 5 GPM by 2007 .



With all the R&D that the diesel manufactures have to spend because of the EPA, how much is a vehicle going to cost in the future.



I will get off of the box now.

 

[esommer2500]

I am not sure of any amounts, but I remember reading that CAT and Cummins are already paying huge sums of money in fines due to their current engine line not meeting 2004(?) EPA specs. I might have to do some more research.



As far as how much a truck is going to cost, I don't know, but it probably isn't going to go down any. I think this fact is probably going to make the owner/operator scene dwindle, as well as all the aftermarket companies that make a business out of selling accessories to the O/O crowd.



My Dad showed me a brochure for a new product that his KW dealership is now carrying. 14" super singles on aluminum wheels. They are supposed to save a butt load of GCVW, but the biggest selling point is that they are supposed to save anywhere from 2-7% in fuel economy! Start looking for them around.



Eric

 

[R.E. Miller]

Cat is paying fines on every engine they sell that is destined for the on-road market that falls under the october 2002 EPA emissions stink. Cummins is not on the ISM's and ISX's with egr, the N-14 is no longer offered in the on road market due to the emission change. I am not sure on Cummins' smaller engines.





BTW, Cat isn't going out of business paying that fine either. They are banking on the bold new technology that they claim ACERT will provide, a pretty solid step for any company, one I can't wait to see.



Russell

 

[Ray Torresdal]

owner operators

Someone mentioned the price of trucks spelling the demise of owner operators . . . The insurance companies will be the end of owner operators! If they didn't have to pay through the nose, the price of a new KW or Pete wouldn't bother them. Everybody is going to be busy paying for the mistakes the property/casualty companies made in the stock market, while their white shirts that made the mistakes will go home with million dollar bonuses. If something isn't done to bring insurance costs under control, there will be no small business left in the USA.



JMHO



ray

 

[waterdonkey]

Well said Ray.

 

[R.E. Miller]

I second that, but with a twist; white shirts in general need to be held more accountable for what they do. Everyone wants six figures+, but not everyone can hang with the responsibilities, if you can't hang, get out. The insurance costs only reflect the growing number of worthless workers here in America; you know, the people who aspire to land a do nothing job that pays a lot, and requires no accountablilty. If everyone did their job, and people got off of themselves, America could be at least 5 times as prosperous as we are now. Sorry, I'll climb down from my high horse



Russell

 

[TPyle]

A little light on ACERT.



ACERT stands for Advanced Combustion Emissions Reduction Technology. It is a 'systems' solution to meeting not only 2004 requirement (2. 5 g/hr NOX) but also 2007 requirements (0. 05 g/hr NOX). Cat has brought together 4 areas of engine operation.



1) Air Management-Twin conventionally wastegated turbos mounted in series. Shafts turn at slower speeds to increase longevity but deliver higher boost. 42-60 psi. Result is to flood intake with a high volume of cool air. Variable valve actuation. Utilizes HEUI technology to vary the valve position relative to the camshaft. Works both intake and exhaust (option of integral compression brake) on C11/C13. Intake only on C15.



2) Fuel System-Utilize MEUI on HDs and HEUI on MDs. Split injection (multiple injection) based on demands and load factors for more complete burn and cooler temps. Eliminates the temp spike at initial combustion.



3) Electronics- Synchronizes the functions of ACERT. Again, senses demands and load factors. Cat is the only engine manufacturer to have programming in house.



4) Aftertreatment-DOCs, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst. Cuts particulates, hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Designed for the life of the engine. Cat has over 120,000 DOCs in operation over the past 10 years. When combustion temps are lowered soot is formed. There are only 2 places to go with soot. Into the oil(and recirculated thru out the engine) or out the exhaust. Cat shose to send it out the exhaust and let the DOCs handle the soot. Cat ACERT engines will have the same PM intervals as pre 10/02 engines and use the same CH4 oil.



Sorry for such long post but I wanted to get the correct information out for those that are interested.