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Cerametallic clutch

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SPDiesel Transmission Controller

Still waiting on the banks exhaust brake release

Got one sitting on the floor at my feet as I type this!



Will know more about how well it works soon - I hafta decide exactly when I want to install it - bought a motorcycle lift with 1500 lbs, capacity to use as a transmission jack, made a transmission cradle to fit it and properly hold the transmission for removal, etc... The REAL work will start soon...



The LUK I have, with the Cerametalic clutch facing, looks fine I guess, haven't really had any experience with heavy duty aftermarket clutches - but LUK apparently makes the hardware used in the SBC clutches, and SBC then install their own clutch material - that gives me confidence in the LUK...



Good "LUK" with yours, and keep us posted if you decide to install one...
 
Where did you guys get your clutches, Dial A Clutch or right from Luk? How much are they and what size did is it? Thanks, I am looking for one!



Nevermind, found em on Carolina Clutch's website. $995 complete. Not bad I guess!
 
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I sure don't know where you see that $995 price - mine was $550 plus shipping from Carolina Clutch (TDR member price) - regular list price is $595...



Got mine installed today - but not quite finished hooking everything back up - will be done tomorrow morning, then some test runs...
 
Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

I sure don't know where you see that $995 price - mine was $550 plus shipping from Carolina Clutch (TDR member price) - regular list price is $595...



Got mine installed today - but not quite finished hooking everything back up - will be done tomorrow morning, then some test runs...





Because mine is a 5-speed and I need the 13" flywheel. Sometimes having the 5-speed sucks!
 
Luk #118 is for the 5 speed flywheel Rams; it includes a flywheel and starter spacer to go to the 6 speed clutch and flywheel but with the 5 speed's 1. 25 x 10 spline in the disk.
 
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clutch home install

So Gary,



Last I heard you were lamenting the hassle of having to drive 80 miles to get your clutch installed. I see you solved that problem in the DIY fashion. Good for you! This is not a job I care to do myself. But I'm curious about resurfacing the flywheel. My understanding is that this is pretty much a mandatory step. Did you do this yourself as well, take it to a shop or skip it?



Hope it turns out great.

Neil
 
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"Because mine is a 5-speed and I need the 13" flywheel. Sometimes having the 5-speed sucks!"



AH! That makes sense - I was beginning to think I was living in another universe - just as some insist... ;) I didn't even see that setup listed in the CC website...



"But I'm curious about resurfacing the flywheel. My understanding is that this is pretty much a mandatory step. Did you do this yourself as well, take it to a shop or skip it?'



I had not abused my clutch - always backed off the power as soon as I detected slippage. The flywheel and pressure plate were near-perfect - hardly any discernable wear, and absolutely pointless to resurface - so I used a medium grit disc sander to thoroughly roughen and dress the flywheel surface, and that was it... I've done the same with more seriously used flywheels in the past, with absolutely no problems, and am not concerned about this one.



This is NOT a job for the weak or faint-hearted! It took me and my RVing bud a full day plus to get it done, but we took our time and used great care as to not ding anything up and make us wish I had paid the $375 to have it done!



The clutch seems to work great - only have about 15 miles on it - it's slightly more aggressive than the stocker, but not at all harsh - and slightly less pedal pressure. Now all I gotta do is hook up the 5er and head for the hills,,, ;) :D
 
Thanks Joe, but wouldn't that be the same as buying the kit for the 5-speed which includes the flywheel and clutch? This is on Carolina Clutch's site. Not doubting you, just confused!



Maybe the 6 speed clutch and the 5-speed #118 would be a cheaper combo?



Nick
 
NPloysa,

I think Joe used the word "flywheel" too much. I understand it as; Luk #118 is for 5 speed trucks. It includes a flywheel, (13") clutch and starter spacer to mate the 6 speed clutch to a 5 speed transmission.

Clear as mud?

Kurt
 
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I understand that, but on the site I can buy the whole thing in one big package, the flywheel, related parts, and clutch itself for $995.



How much is Luk #118?
 
Folks... please don't take this wrong. I just want to post some opinions and facts concerning the cerametallic as well as business ethics.



Lets start with ethics. There are two divisions of Luk... OEM (original equipment manufacturer) and the after market which is the Luk Pro Gold series. Now, we have worked very hard in the diesel market to stay up with you HP junkies. We have all of the friction materials made in the world available to us. When we first came up with the heavy duty organic material (our CON O series) designed by Valeo who is one of the other giants in the drivetrain business, we realized this material would fit the dodge application very well so we had Valeo make the facings for us to accommodate the dodge applications. Luk saw our success with this and tried to prototype it with the Pro Gold series. The only problem they had is that they were unable to create as high of a plate load in the pressure plate as we could. So they were still behind us in performance capabilities. Then the HP kept creeping so we had to come up with a higher holding power clutch facing. It was obvious to us that some sort of metal was going to have to be implimented. Taking all the materials available to us, knowing that metal will definitely hold more, we began to run some tests and using our 45 years of experience we started to weed out what we thought would be to harsh and cause accelerated plate wear. Cerametallic or metallic has been around for many years. Being in the rebuilding business we saw first hand the damage caused to the flywheels and pressure plates caused by the cerametallic, so that was not an option. So, one day a farmer came in with his 1954 Allis Chalmers tractor clutch for his first clutch rebuild. There it was staring us in the face the whole time. (Feramic). We had been using this material for many years!! The only problem was, could we get the facings made to the configuration we wanted and the cost was very high on what was available already. We had a meeting that only lasted about 5 minutes and the unanimous decision was (DO IT). The cost to build the clutch would be very high but dammit, you have $30,000 + trucks and if it were mine I would only want the best. We did it and had great results. This really caught Luks attention. They preceded to go through one of our suppliers to purchase one of our clutches. After receiving it and puting it through their tests they decided this was the !@#$. So they found out where we were having the feramic facings made and went to them all high and mighty. WE ARE LUK AND WE WANT SOLE DISTRIBUTORSHIP OF THIS PRODUCT!! Well, yes we are a small company but we were buying everything they could make and most importantly, we pay our bills in 30 days. Big cooperations like to use your money and pay you when they damm well please. So the feramic facing company politely told them NO! It was back to the drawing board for Luk. They were forced to go with the cerametallic facing and in my opinion felt, because it was much less $ wise to produce that it would give them an edge in the market against us. Knowing it would hold, not caring about the longevity, and using their ability to market, they introduced their new clutch to the market. They even went as far as to copy the 13" upgrade that we and only we designed. Here we are... little old South Bend Clutch, what a joke! The Monster trying to crush the little guy again. Well, enough about ethics.



Now lets go with the facts and numbers;



Feramic friction coefficient is . 7

Cerametallic friction coefficient is . 75 with 5 1/5 times accelerated iron wear over the feramic. This means it WILL groove into the flywheel and pressure plate 5 1/2 times faster then the feramic.



The breaking point where the feramic material looses its friction coefficient is 900 degrees and the cerametallic is 700 degrees.



The melting point of the feramic is 1600 degrees and the cerametallic is 1400 degrees.



This is the reason that the cerametallic facings cost is 1/3 of the feramic.



Mark Chapel (owner of TST) was one of the fist to test this clutch for LUK. The first one they sent him had some problems and caused them to have to remove it from the truck (something about the flywheel) and the first thing TST noticed was how bad the flywheel and pressure plate were grooved. This was in the matter of a month or so. The second has been in for a few months now and Mark has decided to remove the clutch because the accelerated bucking has become intolerable while backing his trailer. He said that the feramic clutch from us carried some issues while backing but the cerametallic was twice as bad once the clutch was seated in.



Folks, I could have produced this clutch from the onset and been able to keep the prices down but I am in it for the long hall.



A phrase that we use in our shop is "Price, Quality, Sevice... pick two". I think you know what two we choose to build our business on.



Peter
 
I wouldn't BEGIN to want to contribute to a "clutch war" - and will accept what Peter has stated as to spec differences between the LUK and SBC clutch facings at face value. I have nothing but respect for Peter and the SBC reputation for service. That being said, it has become glaringly evident there is a behind-the-scenes controversy/rivalry between LUK and SBC - probably normal for competitors... Here's a few things I think I know ;) about the 2 different clutch outfits in general from reading on this board:



1. SBC does, or HAS used LUK hardware in their clutches - either in stock or modified configuration - only Peter knows what, if anything, other than clutch facings are changed.



2. At least at current pricing, the LUK Cerametalic sells to TDR members for nearly $400 *less* than the SBC - and any reasonable buyer HAS to ask if the difference in clutch facing alone is worth, or justifies the extra cost.



I have no reason to doubt that over the lifespan of the Cerametalic, greater wear will occur to the flywheel and pressure plate - but IF after a significant period of miles and time, another replacement is needed. it will come with a new pressure plate, and the flywheel merely meeds to be turned or reground - hardly an earth-shattering event - or one that would in itself be a determining factor! After all, both SBC and LUK specify/recommend turning the flywheel on installation of their clutches anyway!



Sure, folks or businesses who seriously use/abuse clutches WILL see the most wear the quickest - sledpullers, dragracers, and hi-performance outfits using their trucks as testbeds for other performance accessories - but they are hardly typical users!



At this point, *I* have no idea how my own LUK Cerametallic will work out over the long haul - and have clearly stated here many times my preference for and intention to buy a SBC replacement for my own slippery OEM clutch - but for me - as with many others, price DOES count - and a nearly $400 savings can't be simply ignored - for anything close to the same amount, SBC would be my hands-down choice - but it wasn't even close - so I made my choice and paid less for the LUK.



Only time and distance will tell if it was the right one or not! ;)
 
With what Peter said in his testimony to South Bend, I have to agree. With the price I paid for my truck, I have not batted an eye for buying injectors, fuel boxes, exhaust, etc... ... ... So why would I want to put in a clutch that is going to tear up my fly wheel and pressure plate? So I have to save a little money and get what I believe is the best clutch on the market. For all of us that buy aftermarket products that make our trucks look better or go faster this should be a no brainer. My guess is one may not want to pay the price for a clutch because it maybe something you can't see, doesn't make your truck louder, faster, or for what it is worth, you can just get buy with a cheaper product that may work, may not. I know cost of materials is expensive since I purchase abrasive for industrial use. Trust me when I say abrasives are not cheap, I have vendors trying to cut each others throat by trying to cook up new recipes to make a cutting disk last longer or cheaper. When they get cheap, they are cheap, not very cost effective for our company. So Gary IMO I hope that we will not see you posting how your LUK tore up your fly wheel. So good luck, in what ever you guys decide to use.
 
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Gary - KJ6Q



I completely respect you decision on the choice of clutch you decided to go with. And I would also like to thank you for your past, and present support. One thing that continues to catch my eyes is the clutch is simply referred to as $400 less then ours. Somehow that seems to sound like it is the same clutch for less when in fact it is NOT the same.



Every clutch company starts with a base clutch, this case being Luk. Centerforce uses the Luk product and does their alterations. It is also less expensive then ours. Should that be used as a comparison also?



Luk's cerametalic design uses the same pressure plate as we do but theirs has stock clamp load and we alter ours to create 25% more clamp load. Our clutches are individually ran and inspected. They are not coming off an assembly line.



A lot plays in with the end price. We have worked on this from the beginning taking the sacrifices along with the good, designing and making changes, warranties, etc. All of this has to play into your pricing to keep yourself in business. I know some will say it's the American way but it sure seems easy to come in the back door and try to capitalize, to duplicate a working product to cut all the initial cost out. This goes back to my ethics statement earlier.



I also have a 4 level price tier, Master distributor, distributor, jobber and retail. We not only do this to help promote our clutches, as in a sales force, but it is also to allow companies to make a profit on our clutch so they can make money as well. This enables these companies to further themselves on their own business venture. This, in my opinion, is the American Way.



When you have the manufacturer copying the little guy's product and then selling it direct to the end user and cutting out every middle man is not, in my opinion, the American Way. Sure, I could out Piers Diesel, BD Engine, Bully Dog, Wildcat, Diesel Dynamics, TST, Haisley Machine, ATS, Prince Diesel, and all of my many distributors and master distributors, and the garages who buy from them and me, and sell direct to you for a substantially reduced price. Is this how life should go? Every man for himself with no support or network?



Yes, the person who benefits is the end user, but do they? How many jobs have to be sacrificed to allow the rich to get richer? What puzzles me is that I use their product anyway, so in fact, they have already gotten the sale. Believe me, in the past few years I have been bombarded with manufacturers jumping over all my suppliers and wanting to sell direct to me. I have to ask myself why. These people have supported me, stocked the inventory, and kept the pricing reasonable but yet I have the manufacturers wanting to cut their throats. In my opinion it is because they are running overseas and making the parts for less in mass quantities with cheap labor and wanting to get rid of their overstocked product as quick as possible. I do not like this system and I will not fall into it's trap. Call me old school, and I may die by this way of thinking, but I tell you this, I sleep better at night.



Sorry for my babble.





Peter
 
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Peter - as you mention, you always have had, and WILL have my support as well as that of the vast majority of your customers on this board - I have not the slightest criticism of your product, and your service has consistently spoken for itself.



Only time will tell whether in my specific case, my choice was the right one - I figure that with my kind of use, 150,000 miles on the clutch will be acceptable - it took me 11 years to put less than that mileage on my '91 Dodge. THEN, if I need a replacement and flywheel regrind, so be it - and then the "choice" bit for another replacement will be required - but by then, I'll probably only be "driving" a wheelchair - or casket! ;)



Only one valid question remains as to comparing the $550 LUK vs the $900+ SBC Con Ofe - the LUK was represented to me to be good for in excess of 500 HP. , if that is not correct, who wants to challenge LUK's claim? And, if the price comparison is not fair or proper, what clutch similar in power rating to the LUK *does* SBC offer near the $550 price of the LUK? :confused:



After all, any maker can CLAIM whatever they choose - it falls to the end-user to learn what is accurate out in their own specific "real world"...



Peter, good luck, and continued good business to you! :D
 
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