2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission change to posi?

[jmadden]

WW -- best gets you into the same debate that auto transmission owners have been having (i. e. , DTT or ATS or Goerend or you get the idea).



What can a novice do? Depends how big a novice and what tools are available. I've changed gears, installed lockers, replaced axles, etc. , on Toyotas, which allow the whole 3rd member to be pulled (similar to a ford 9-inch), but have not done any such on a Dana... which requires a case spreader to get the carrier out. Without guidance I'm a little reluctant to tackle... not that it can't be done.



If you were open in the rear your could easily do a lockright or quiklock since the carrier wouldn't have to be removed... for any other locker you need to pull the carrier making it more challenging. If you have a case spreader and you know how to use it you just might be good to go w/ an install. If you know anyone that's changed gears on a dana axle and they're willing to help you'll be even further ahead.



Air vs Electric vs Automatic has been a locker debate on more sites than just this one... from my perspective there is no BEST one, just one that will make the owner the happiest. Air (i. e. , ARB) & automatics (i. e. , Detroit) have both been around a while and have strong followings. Electric are newer. My only experience with air anything was air shocks and that was less than positive as I kept having problems w/ seals and air retention. Some ARB owners will say this is a constant problem... others will say if you install and maintain it properly you'll never have a problem... potentially you won't know until you flip the switch and it doesn't engage. In order for air lockers to work you have to add and air compressor. For electric to work you need electric... and well... we all have that on our truks already. Have not heard much feedback for owners on the electric lockers yet. For either you will be making a hole of some type to get the air/electric in to the diff. Is it worth it? If selectable lockers are desired that's one of the prices you pay.



Pricing example (pulled from a 4wd mag for a D60):

Detroit Locker: $513 ($552 for a D70)

ARB (Air): $665 ($776 for a D70) plus $195 for an ARB compressor

Detroit Electac: starting at $796

Eaton Elockers seem to be under $600 for most applications.



MAYBE... you get what you pay for... but then again maybe NOT. I run a lockright in a toyota landcruiser and have heard a lot of people call them junk, but I've never broken one (axle shaft yes, welder spider gears yes, lockright never!).



If you want to see how they work, look on the respective makers websites (ARB, Detroit Electrak, Eaton)... sorry don't have the websites handy, but I'm sure a google search can get you there. If you can't find them report and I'll look when I remember and have leisure time.



If you want to actually talk w/ someone knowledgable call Randy's or Reider's or even West Coast Differentials... they are all generally helpful and have a lot more knowledge on the subject than I ever hope to have. Not all D60, 70, 80s are the same... Dodge has some odd aspects that might limit your selection.



Not sure why Uncle would say plate pinning is not for a Novice... doesn't sound any more technically challenging that replacing a carrier. Be curious to see Uncle's reasoning.



jm

 

[WaynesWorld]

change to posi

Originally posted by jmadden

WW -- best gets you into the same debate that auto transmission owners have been having (i. e. , DTT or ATS or Goerend or you get the idea).



What can a novice do? Depends how big a novice and what tools are available. I've changed gears, installed lockers, replaced axles, etc. , on Toyotas, which allow the whole 3rd member to be pulled (similar to a ford 9-inch), but have not done any such on a Dana... which requires a case spreader to get the carrier out. Without guidance I'm a little reluctant to tackle... not that it can't be done.



If you were open in the rear your could easily do a lockright or quiklock since the carrier wouldn't have to be removed... for any other locker you need to pull the carrier making it more challenging. If you have a case spreader and you know how to use it you just might be good to go w/ an install. If you know anyone that's changed gears on a dana axle and they're willing to help you'll be even further ahead.



Air vs Electric vs Automatic has been a locker debate on more sites than just this one... from my perspective there is no BEST one, just one that will make the owner the happiest. Air (i. e. , ARB) & automatics (i. e. , Detroit) have both been around a while and have strong followings. Electric are newer. My only experience with air anything was air shocks and that was less than positive as I kept having problems w/ seals and air retention. Some ARB owners will say this is a constant problem... others will say if you install and maintain it properly you'll never have a problem... potentially you won't know until you flip the switch and it doesn't engage. In order for air lockers to work you have to add and air compressor. For electric to work you need electric... and well... we all have that on our truks already. Have not heard much feedback for owners on the electric lockers yet. For either you will be making a hole of some type to get the air/electric in to the diff. Is it worth it? If selectable lockers are desired that's one of the prices you pay.



Pricing example (pulled from a 4wd mag for a D60):

Detroit Locker: $513 ($552 for a D70)

ARB (Air): $665 ($776 for a D70) plus $195 for an ARB compressor

Detroit Electac: starting at $796

Eaton Elockers seem to be under $600 for most applications.



MAYBE... you get what you pay for... but then again maybe NOT. I run a lockright in a toyota landcruiser and have heard a lot of people call them junk, but I've never broken one (axle shaft yes, welder spider gears yes, lockright never!).



If you want to see how they work, look on the respective makers websites (ARB, Detroit Electrak, Eaton)... sorry don't have the websites handy, but I'm sure a google search can get you there. If you can't find them report and I'll look when I remember and have leisure time.



If you want to actually talk w/ someone knowledgable call Randy's or Reider's or even West Coast Differentials... they are all generally helpful and have a lot more knowledge on the subject than I ever hope to have. Not all D60, 70, 80s are the same... Dodge has some odd aspects that might limit your selection.



Not sure why Uncle would say plate pinning is not for a Novice... doesn't sound any more technically challenging that replacing a carrier. Be curious to see Uncle's reasoning.



jm

This sounds like a great topic at the huchsford weekend.

How much would this hurt fuel mileage on my 2wd daily transpotation?

 

[Uncle Joe]

Guys,the reason I said I didn't recommend it to a novice is due to the "I got it all apart and I cant put it back together" syndrome.

Actually you don't have to pull the carrier to do it but its much easier to do it on the bench.

To those who are not familiar with the concept of "limited slip"

here is clutch type 101:there is a wet clutch pack between the carrier and the axle (again,anyone who ever changed the clutch on a bike: its the same thing)the clutch pack consist of friction plates (have ears that fit in the Carrier, the ears break often) stacked between metal discs(splined, fit on the axle) the discs are often get a mirror polished with use,the whole assy is tensioned by springs set to break contact at 90-120 ft/lb that is required for making turns as the outside wheel spins faster then the inside wheel,therefore the inside wheel clutch pack will slip to allow the speed differential(thats why its called a differential btw)otherwise when both wheels are running at the same speed the torque should be applied evenly to both axles(yeh right).

thats the theory behind it,however it it the nature of the design to wear out with every turn you make (pun intended).

Now,I know I generalized it so correct me if I missed something,I'm not much of a writer.

Basically the pinning process is a way to restore new life into a worn out clutch pack,it doesn't turn it into a "posi" or a "locker",

If done correctly it will save you from buying a new "posi" unit, prepare for having to replace some of the friction discs duo to the broken ears (the most common failure in case of burn outs).

One could take the carrier out ,take it to shop to have it "rebuilt"

and ask them to perform the pinning,if they will look at you as if you are crazy look for another shop,all that means that the guy hasn't been working on diffs for very long.

 

[WaynesWorld]

change to posi

Uncle Joe,

I like your idea on "pinning the rear". It may take a while to get to, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks for the info.



WAYNES WORLD

 

[WaynesWorld]

rear end info

Don't know about the chicago area but you can get ARB from a lot of places. ARB's are right around $650, plus you need air... the ARB compressor kit is ~$200. Places that might have them:



Randy's Ring & Pinion: http://www.ringpinion.com



OK Auto: http://www.ok4wd.com



Reider Racing: http://www.reiderracing.com



Nat'l Drivetrain: http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com



Off Road Unlimited: http://www.macromotive.com or http://www.4wdstore.com



Also, Eaton is making an electric locker, rather than the air used by ARB. Eaton should be available for D60, D70 is either ready or on the way shortly and same for the D80. Price ~$750



Detroit is also making an electric locker with availability similar to the Eaton from what I've heard. Price ~$750



I've debated changing and have been more inclined to this electric over the ARB's air system.



jm

jm,



Do you know of a good, reliable & honest rear end guy around here? I plan on rebuilding my rear end rather than replacing it.

Thanks,

WAYNES WORLD

 

[Eskimo1]

I think what would be best for a street driven vehicle desiring more traction would be the Detroit Trutrac... it's a gear-driven limited slip unit... no clutches, no additive, but will provide MUCH more traction than an open diff, but without the drawbacks of automatic lockers. (but, if one tire is on ice and the other on pavement, you won't get the traction a full locker would provide, but modulating the brakes can help that) It's available for the Dana 80 right now.



ARB's, etc... IMO are too much of a pain on road... turn on, wait for compressor, hit switch, lock diff, phooey.



The Tractec (Detroit) Electrac is IMO, the best of everything. It's a gear-driven LSD that is also a true electric locker. It's only available up to Dana 60's right now, but I hope it comes out for the 70's and 80's.

 

[jmadden]

WW -- don't know of anyone reliable off hand, but will ask around a little... and send you e-mail or pm should I get some info.



jm

 

[Uncle Joe]

Wow... . this must be a record..... Until today the last post is a year old!

 

[Stamey]

Wow... . this must be a record..... Until today the last post is a year old!

Yeah, but those of us that are interested still watch the thread.



Chris

 

[WaynesWorld]

change to posi

Well, heres a update on the change.

I talked to Randys ring & pinion, Schieds & my local Dodge dealer. They seem to be united in the cause of rebuilding this Dana 70 U Power Loc.

The concensus, being that its the best all around unit under the vehicle.

How does this look to you guys?



WAYNES WORLD

 

[Jrork]

Just bringing this back up to the top. I'm tired of my 2wd no LSD getting stuck everywhere. Curious if there's some more new info on whats best??



Thanks guys... ... ... John

 

[Stamey]

My vote is definitely the Powr-Lok. I just rebuilt mine, after a spider gear explosion while sled pulling. It was tight before, and is still so tight that I break traction with the inside tire turning corners. I'm gonna have to add some more friction modifier. I don't think you can go wrong with it. I hear you can get them on Ebay reasonable, and if it does need rebuilding you can do it for about 220. 00, from Randy's. That's EVERYTHING inside the LS unit. I hear you can get just the clutches for about 50. 00.



Chris

 

[Dual EE]

I also back the Dana Power Loc. No more peg leg for me. Oo.

 

[JWestley]

Thanh You for the advice on restacking.

How does this compare to a posi rear?

I have never had a rear end out to repair, can this be done by a novice, or should I turn it over to a pro?

WAYNES WORLD

You shouldn't need to take the carrier out, so its a pretty straight forward job, but if you decide to take the carrier out it would be wise to keep track of the shims on each side of the carrier. Once the carrier is out just follow the instructions on restacking.