Changing oil without filling filter??

[lil red cummins]

i have also always filled the oil filter before installing. its the way i was raised. on the old international 345 gas engines that had cartridge filters, there was close to 2 quarts of oil in there. the engines would sometimes run for over 15 seconds before getting pressure, if you left it empty. even though they were not my engines i would never do that.



it is too easy to fill most filters to a point where it can still be easily handled.



the only exceptions that come to mind were the old dodge slant 6 and the international farm tractors, because their filters mount upside down.



why take a chance leaving it dry.



my . 02c



jim

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Here's another arguement for prefilling: when you fire up on a empty filter I wonder if the sudden rush of oil under pressure will stress the media and possibly damage it or cause fibers to break free? Take note that the B-Series oil pump cranks out 17-20 GALLONS per minute! http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/96specs.html

 

[David Oxland]

20 GPM at rated speed, likely



Most people just do tickover until pressure is up

 

[hasselbach]

Any motor we built, and just about everybody I know in the racing engine arena always prefills!



Your bearings ride on a cushion of pressurize oil wedge. . The hammering of an 18 to 1 compression engine is hard on a bearing that is not pressurized.



Take time to check for the little foil under the cap, and do it right.



CAT's policy was to cover their ***** due to lazy mechanics that didn't have surgical procedures in place. Screw the customer is what that policy says to me. How about instructing the mechanic to keep a clean environment?



At start up, the pump doesn't prime right way, so you are fooling yourselves that it’s only for a brief nano second of no oil pressure. I've seen it on analog gauges in past Cummins to take upwards to 10 seconds (in the winter) to fill the filter and show pressure. Where do you think the air in the filter is displaced? Ah, maybe through the mains? Air in the main bearings isn't a great cushion for two pieces of metal.

 

[MDietrich]

You know what? You guys are defiantly making me rethink my oil changing ways!



I started out prefilling filters by just dumping it in the return hole. Quit doing that for fear of getting something in there(I always try to be clean, just paranoid sometimes) or dropping it and making a bigger mess.



Now after learning about putting the oil in the inlet holes and high pressure air into the system from an empty filter, I'm going to start prefilling again.



It's never to late to learn a better way and change my thinking.



Thanks



MD

 

[Grizzly]

What do the Cummins folks recommend? What does Furd and Chevy say about prefill?

 

[Joe G.]

I didn't mention it in my first post on this thread. I also pre fill the filter through the inlet holes. I have a fairly clean environment to work in and I am very careful when I am dealing with any filter.

 

[Ron Bissett]

I have always and will continue to prefill and I do keep a clean environment. Having said that and no one has ever changed oil for me before, but when I purchased my 05 I got a free 7 year oil change, twice per year. When I had the dealer change my oil for the first time, I told him that I want the oil filter prefilled. He said they alway do. I watched him anyway. Before I left the dealer, with my truck outside, I checked the oil level. It was full and very black. How can new oil get that black that soon?

One trick is to use old oil from the last customer with the seven year free oil change. :-laf :-laf :-laf Ron Bissett in Metro Louisville KY

 

[fkovalski]

One trick is to use old oil from the last customer ...

Technically, you would still be "changing " the oil.



Dealer to customer:

"... oh, you mean wanted NEW oil on that oil change. "

:-laf

 

[MKoth]

CAT's policy was to cover their ***** due to lazy mechanics that didn't have surgical procedures in place. Screw the customer is what that policy says to me. How about instructing the mechanic to keep a clean environment?

Cat has the strictest cleanliness policy of any company I have seen, or worked for. You can eat off the floors at anytime, regardless of which tech, or which work area. Any spills are cleaned immediately, and all floor and work surfaces are scrubbed and washed between jobs.



All fluids are sealed, or run through multiple filters before they are allowed to enter a piece of machinery.



I am going to guess you have never worked for a shop that specializes in industrial and commercial diesel engines.



I have seen many "race engine shops" that don't hold a candle to policy enforced by Cat.



Must be real easy to criticize a company you have no experience with.



Exactly what would you tell a customer that damages a "race" engine, due to foreign matter that was introduced through contaminated oil while being serviced at you shop?

 

[hasselbach]

Cat has the strictest cleanliness policy of any company I have seen, or worked for. You can eat off the floors at anytime, regardless of which tech, or which work area. Any spills are cleaned immediately, and all floor and work surfaces are scrubbed and washed between jobs.



All fluids are sealed, or run through multiple filters before they are allowed to enter a piece of machinery.



I am going to guess you have never worked for a shop that specializes in industrial and commercial diesel engines.



I have seen many "race engine shops" that don't hold a candle to policy enforced by Cat.



Must be real easy to criticize a company you have no experience with.



Exactly what would you tell a customer that damages a "race" engine, due to foreign matter that was introduced through contaminated oil while being serviced at you shop?

Regardless of the fact that you eat off the floors at work, my point was mainly that CAT's policy was to cover their butts. Why WOULDN't you prefill the oil filter unless for only the reason that you felt some lazy mechanic might introduce a foreign object in the filter. I didn't say your place of work was that specific place, I meant it as an overall comment.



Yes, as a matter of Fact there is a local CAT service dealer in our town where I get my filters and YES it is a pig pen, so YES I have seen some that were filthy.

 

[justinp20012500]

I don't prefill mine, but I do pull the fuel system relay and crank for 5 full seconds to let the pump build some pressure. I also pre lube turbos this way too.





Justin

 

[Heepdriver]

I saw someware that most Cummins motor jobs done under warranty are due to contaminants introduced at prefill of the oil filter. I believe they even specified that this was the foil wrap on the oil bottles. I do prefill but am aware and take precautions to prevent any misshaps. Think about all the oil filter's that are sold for those little four bangers that mount on the side of the block and have no anti-drain back valve, most if not all live far more than 100,000 miles filling a almost drained filter on every start up.

As far as pushing an air pocket through your oiling system, air unlike oil is compressible and always trys to float up, Chances are that it will end up at your cam bearings or in your valve train if not straight out the turbo. And the turbo is always drained at shutdown. Saying the air pocket will blow the oil off the mains, even for a brief instant after being compressed at cold start up to system operating pressures is very unlikely, if even possible at all. How did all those old diesels live that had cartridge filters inverted on the top of the engine. One example is the old White Industries Multi Fuel, those two huge filter's must of held a gallon and a half that needed to be pressureized and filled at every start-up.



Just my two cents, and they have appeared to look like wooden nickels at times.

 

[Joe G.]

At the rate oil flows through these engines air does not have time to float up.

 

[hasselbach]

I saw someware that most Cummins motor jobs done under warranty are due to contaminants introduced at prefill of the oil filter. I believe they even specified that this was the foil wrap on the oil bottles. I do prefill but am aware and take precautions to prevent any misshaps. Think about all the oil filter's that are sold for those little four bangers that mount on the side of the block and have no anti-drain back valve, most if not all live far more than 100,000 miles filling a almost drained filter on every start up.

As far as pushing an air pocket through your oiling system, air unlike oil is compressible and always trys to float up, Chances are that it will end up at your cam bearings or in your valve train if not straight out the turbo. And the turbo is always drained at shutdown. Saying the air pocket will blow the oil off the mains, even for a brief instant after being compressed at cold start up to system operating pressures is very unlikely, if even possible at all. How did all those old diesels live that had cartridge filters inverted on the top of the engine. One example is the old White Industries Multi Fuel, those two huge filter's must of held a gallon and a half that needed to be pressureized and filled at every start-up.



Just my two cents, and they have appeared to look like wooden nickels at times.

Heep, I have to point out the numerous errors in your post.

1. Most if not all engines have the oil pump feeding the main bearings first, then what ever is left goes to the cam and lifters. So airpockets just aren't going to float to the cam bearings.

2. The air is going to float up? Not sure where or how you figure this, but remember, your oil system is pressurize to at least 40 psi. Air bubbles are not going to float, but rather follow the route of the oil passages of least resistance, which incidently is the main bearing (by design)

3. The turbo does not drain down when you shut off the motor. If it did, air would have to replace the draining oil, which would mean it would have to come from the oil pump, which the pick up is submerged in oil. So how would air actually do this? Same with the oil filters that are horizontal, I have yet to pull a filter off a car or truck that has a filter mounted sideways and see any evidence of air displacement. If the filter is mounted topside, same thing by design, for oil to drain out the bottom, it would have to get air in somehow, but if the oil pickup is submerged, it just doesn't happen.



I doubt anyone has proven that pre filling is a must, but in theory, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[MKoth]

Regardless of the fact that you eat off the floors at work, my point was mainly that CAT's policy was to cover their butts. Why WOULDN't you prefill the oil filter unless for only the reason that you felt some lazy mechanic might introduce a foreign object in the filter. I didn't say your place of work was that specific place, I meant it as an overall comment.



Yes, as a matter of Fact there is a local CAT service dealer in our town where I get my filters and YES it is a pig pen, so YES I have seen some that were filthy.

I still don't get how your argument is based on a lazy tech. You must never make a mistake.



Why wouldn't you prefill? A little accelerated wear, for a few seconds every couple hundred hours, or every 5-15,000 miles, vs the possibility, however slight, due to a "lazy" tech, or an unseen contaminant in the fluid that could cause oil passage blockage.



I will add also that an empty oil filter is much easier to install then one filled with several quarts of oil. Or if it is mounted at an angle, a cartridge, or upside down. I guess that is just being "lazy".



If a customer requested a prefill on the filter, I would gladly do it, but would also note it on the workorder, incase there was something in the oil that hurt the engine.

 

[hasselbach]

I still don't get how your argument is based on a lazy tech. You must never make a mistake.



Why wouldn't you prefill? A little accelerated wear, for a few seconds every couple hundred hours, or every 5-15,000 miles, vs the possibility, however slight, due to a "lazy" tech, or an unseen contaminant in the fluid that could cause oil passage blockage.



I will add also that an empty oil filter is much easier to install then one filled with several quarts of oil. Or if it is mounted at an angle, a cartridge, or upside down. I guess that is just being "lazy".



If a customer requested a prefill on the filter, I would gladly do it, but would also note it on the workorder, incase there was something in the oil that hurt the engine.

You're right, I'm not lazy and I never make mistakes, especially on very expensive engines. And yes, I'd do what I can to avoid any wear and tear on our expensive engines. And yes, I've seen enough lazy mechanics to understand how this can happen (actually fired a few myself). And yes, I've personally witnessed enough lazy mechanics and their horrible work areas to see why CAT might impliment a 'no pre fill' policy. Thanks for helping me prove my valid point.

 

[jjohnson1177]

Well since I don't drink(to much ) while I'm doing my oil changes I think I'll keep prefilling my filters. Did anyone notice that when you pull the Mopar filter out of the box there is nothing sealing the filter it's self, it's just in the cardboard. I guess it boils down to each his own.

 

[hasselbach]

Well since I don't drink(to much ) while I'm doing my oil changes I think I'll keep prefilling my filters. Did anyone notice that when you pull the Mopar filter out of the box there is nothing sealing the filter it's self, it's just in the cardboard. I guess it boils down to each his own.

Maybe if CAT had a "no drink policy" they could eliminate the "no pre fill policy"

 

[Joe G.]

Did anyone notice that when you pull the Mopar filter out of the box there is nothing sealing the filter it's self, it's just in the cardboard.

The Fleetguard Stratapore filters I buy are sealed in plastic inside the box.