Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Cheapest performance gain for towing

[SnoKing]

Closer View

Closer view. Note that I used two spring, one inside the other to get enough tension. SNOKING

 

[groser]

Thanks for all the replies and pictures. It's obvious I need to do more homework because when it comes to increasing HP on a diesel I don't understand some of the terms you guys are using or the purpose of some of the upgrades. I assume a J-hook or turnbuckle attaches to the wastegate and forces it closed to produce higher boost but I would also assume lower volume? What's a "box" ? Someone mentioned I need a box.

I did remove and clean my radiator before my last trip and it certainly helped but didn't solve but I was in 90 100-degree ambient temps in the Black Hills.

Is there a tutorial I can read to better understand the process of increasing HP? I'm currently going thru back issues in TDR, scouring web sites and reading the answers to a lot of questions in the forum. I've asked diesel shops in the local area but it's pretty obvious to me they don't fully understand the diesel, all they want to do is sell me a chip.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for all the replies and pictures. It's obvious I need to do more homework because when it comes to increasing HP on a diesel I don't understand some of the terms you guys are using or the purpose of some of the upgrades. I assume a J-hook or turnbuckle attaches to the wastegate and forces it closed to produce higher boost but I would also assume lower volume? What's a "box" ? Someone mentioned I need a box.

I did remove and clean my radiator before my last trip and it certainly helped but didn't solve but I was in 90 100-degree ambient temps in the Black Hills.

Is there a tutorial I can read to better understand the process of increasing HP? I'm currently going thru back issues in TDR, scouring web sites and reading the answers to a lot of questions in the forum. I've asked diesel shops in the local area but it's pretty obvious to me they don't fully understand the diesel, all they want to do is sell me a chip.

No, a J-hook doesn't limit air volume - just allows greater PSI and increased performance. The "boxes" are aftermarket add-on electronic devices designed to improve power thru programming. There is a FAQ available on this board that answers lots of newbie questions, and is a good place to start.



Stick around a while, do some more reading - and soon, you too will dazzle new members with baffling acronyms and puzzling terminology... :-laf

 

[DCreed]

a jhook will help put out higher boost on the turbo ,but at a point it will exceed its efficiency curve and blow hot air or possibly just blow up! Gary and yourself seem on the right path of thinking read, ask, learn,then do. if local shops dont offer answers many guys/vendors here do. a "box" is just a term for an electronic add-on such as edge ez or van achen.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

the hy has a 9 cm exhaust housing (restrictive) the HX has a 12 cm 33% larger and will build up to 36psi , with tc locked the trans doesnt matter. maybe less heat w/out cooler in front of rad?

Groser, your problem is the restriction in your exhaust flow. But saying that, I DO like the suggestion made by Silver Ram and MattSt. I cleaned mine, too, and I was embarrassed by all the crap in that thing. Ain't nothin' like a length of heater hose and some zip ties.



The HY-9 is restrictive. The HX-35 is restrictive, too. As stated, it only has a12cm2 exhaust housing. Get yourself a power washer and a 16cm2 Holset exhaust housing on a HX-35 or HX- 40 turbo. TRADE your little HY-9 for one of the bigger models, Cost: Free (minus shipping)



Cummins Diesel Hot Rodders LOVE the little HY-9. It lights off almost instantaneously with little or no lag. It is the perfect drag racing secondary in a set of 1/4 mile twins.

 

[SnoKing]

Groser, your problem is the restriction in your exhaust flow. But saying that, I DO like the suggestion made by Silver Ram and MattSt. I cleaned mine, too, and I was embarrassed by all the crap in that thing. Ain't nothin' like a length of heater hose and some zip ties.



The HY-9 is restrictive. The HX-35 is restrictive, too. As stated, it only has a12cm2 exhaust housing. Get yourself a power washer and a 16cm2 Holset exhaust housing on a HX-35 or HX- 40 turbo. TRADE your little HY-9 for one of the bigger models, Cost: Free (minus shipping)



Cummins Diesel Hot Rodders LOVE the little HY-9. It lights off almost instantaneously with little or no lag. It is the perfect drag racing secondary in a set of 1/4 mile twins.

Just to be clear here, the HY-35 with 9cm2 housing has to be completely replaced, it is not upgradable per say. Look for a used HX35 and send it to PDR and have them make it a PDR35. It will spool almost as fast as the HY when they do their magic. What exhaust housing you use on it will depend on what injectors you run. With RV275 you will not want anything bigger than the stock 12cm2 housing or you will not be able to light it up (make work, making boost). SNOKING

 

[ThrottleJockey]

SNOKING, you forgot about the word cheap!



PDR and cheap do not go together. And he can use the 16cm2 to TOW with his stock injectors. Remember how the 24 valve increases it's fueling under load. Multiple pulses vs. more flow. Injectors say, 1 size too small, and a turbine housing 1 size too big.

 

[SnoKing]

SNOKING, you forgot about the word cheap!



PDR and cheap do not go together. And he can use the 16cm2 to TOW with his stock injectors. Remember how the 24 valve increases it's fueling under load. Multiple pulses vs. more flow. Injectors say, 1 size too small, and a turbine housing 1 size too big.

What is he going to bolt the 16cm2 to???? Could you explain more about how the VP44 does multiple pulses?



SNOKING

 

[ThrottleJockey]

No, no. Your'e right. I was just suggesting he TRADE his little turbo for a bigger, used one, like the model you mentioned. That would be free, minus his shipping cost. Hopefully find the size he wanted. Then he could keep his $450. 00 bills.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

The VP-44, or the ECM rather, while towing will inject a small, advanced timed pilot injection, then a larger pulse in retarded timing for more fuel volume and more power.



This way it will save your head gasket from blowing. The good part is that all of this fuel and heat created by the retarded timing of the second fuel pulse will turn a slightly bigger turbo.....



... . while TOWING.

 

[SnoKing]

The VP-44, or the ECM rather, while towing will inject a small, advanced timed pilot injection, then a larger pulse in retarded timing for more fuel volume and more power.



This way it will save your head gasket from blowing. The good part is that all of this fuel and heat created by the retarded timing of the second fuel pulse will turn a slightly bigger turbo.....



... . while TOWING.

Sounds like the CR engine. I question the VP44 being able to do that. Is there a write up somewhere on that? SNOKING

 

[georgej]

According to the Bosch booklet # ISBN -3-934584-65-9 on diesel fuel injector pumps pg3 and pg 66 pre-injection event are capable with the VP44. Whether or not Dodge used this capablilty is the question. However to the original question of a $450 upgrade to enhance towing let me add my experience. I added 275 injectors and later a Van Aaken smartbox , both new at a cost of $550. This combination has really added to my towing power and I wholeheartedly recommend them. I tow through the Rockys every year and monitor the EGTs to keep them below 1250 degrees. This has worked for me so far. Yes if I had unlimited funds I add a bigger turbo and exhaust and more fuel and... . so on .



George

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Sounds like the CR engine. I question the VP44 being able to do that. Is there a write up somewhere on that? SNOKING

SNOKING, the CR engine can use up to 5 injection events! I think it's 5, I can't remember, but it's more than 2. The DuraMax can go 5.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The VP-44, or the ECM rather, while towing will inject a small, advanced timed pilot injection, then a larger pulse in retarded timing for more fuel volume and more power.



This way it will save your head gasket from blowing. The good part is that all of this fuel and heat created by the retarded timing of the second fuel pulse will turn a slightly bigger turbo.....



... . while TOWING.

I'm sorry, but must disagree - while the VP-44 is CAPABLE of dual-event injection, it is NOT used in the OEM Dodge configuration! It was only with the later provided aftermarket power boxes from folks like Edge that full advantage of the VP-44's capabilities were put to use - NOT as supplied from the factory!



Marco, European developer of the popular CaTCHER and now the Smarty, said THIS about multiple injection events and the VP-44:

The boxes that tap the pump wire do add an SECOND injection stroke after the ECM's one.



It works like this:

The ECM sends it's signal to the VP. The VP executes that command and injects the requested fuel with the requested timing by the ECM. The box adds then ANOTHER injection stroke AFTER the "main" injection stroke from the ECM. That's possible because the VP's have been designed for TWO injection strokes by Bosch from the beginning. The major fuelling boxes do "activate" an function that's already there but has not been used by Cummins. That can be easily seen hooking up a scope to the pump wire...



Clear as mud?



From the above it's also clear that:

1) Those boxes add fuel with a retarted timing ( the second stroke takes place later )

2) The EGT's will raise to abnormal levels ( late timing and more fuel )

3) These boxes sqeeze out as much fuel as the VP has in the plungers...

The problem with multiple injection events, is TIMING - it HAS to be modified and adjusted to take advantage of the injection capability - and done wrong, can be more of a problem than a benefit - do some here (besides me!) remember that one of the "fixes" for some of the Dodge earlier 3rd generation common rail engine issues was to ELIMINATE the first pre-injection event - which caused a return of the traditional Cummins combustion rattle?



Entering into higher performance with multiple injection events ALSO requires careful tailoring of injector flow rate capability - since the timing and efficiency at which they are capable of actually flowing all the fuel into the cylinder at varying engine RPM can easily become a crucial element in multiple injection events.



Much like a gas spark combustion setup, you can only spread out actual combustion just so far, before experiencing diminishing returns, and lose more than you gain...

 

[SnoKing]

Thanks Gary, I thought someone would clear this up. So much misinformation on the internet. SNOKING

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I'm sorry, but must disagree - while the VP-44 is CAPABLE of dual-event injection, it is NOT used in the OEM Dodge configuration! It was only with the later provided aftermarket power boxes from folks like Edge that full advantage of the VP-44's capabilities were put to use - NOT as supplied from the factory!



Marco, European developer of the popular CaTCHER and now the Smarty, said THIS about multiple injection events and the VP-44:









The problem with multiple injection events, is TIMING - it HAS to be modified and adjusted to take advantage of the injection capability - and done wrong, can be more of a problem than a benefit - do some here (besides me!) remember that one of the "fixes" for some of the Dodge earlier 3rd generation common rail engine issues was to ELIMINATE the first pre-injection event - which caused a return of the traditional Cummins combustion rattle?



Entering into higher performance with multiple injection events ALSO requires careful tailoring of injector flow rate capability - since the timing and efficiency at which they are capable of actually flowing all the fuel into the cylinder at varying engine RPM can easily become a crucial element in multiple injection events.



Much like a gas spark combustion setup, you can only spread out actual combustion just so far, before experiencing diminishing returns, and lose more than you gain...

I had this explained to me while at Cummins in Columbus, IN. It's not misinformation. This happens while TOWING. Marco's test was not with a loaded VP-44 (Towing) The engineer told me it's the only way to get more fuel to the combustion chamber without bigger injector holes. Our conversation started because he said his car, a VW of some kind, had the same injection pump as our trucks. I had asked why the VP was so unreliable. We started talking about pumps, more or less fuel, etc.

 

[SnoKing]

Here is a write up on the VP44. I do not see anything that you are talking about. VP44 Electronic Inj Pump. Maybe you can point us at a better writeup. SNOKING

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I had this explained to me while at Cummins in Columbus, IN. It's not misinformation. This happens while TOWING. Marco's test was not with a loaded VP-44 (Towing)

There is NO "towing" switch or position on our 2nd generation trucks - so HOW would the VP-44 KNOW it was "towing" - and, how do you KNOW what the conditions were for Marco's test and statement - or are you simply assuming? :-laf



Perhaps you have a pointer where Marco stated the conditions of his testing for his statement? What makes YOUR "experts" more "expert" than Marco? with all due respect, and In case you are unaware, Marco has been under contract with our domestic vehicle manufacturers to retune the engine control computers for the European vehicle market, since their vehicle regulations are different than ours - he's NOT simply some hack operating from a dark and grubby backyard shop, but an electronics engineer well known and respected by our own automaking industry - and he's certainly no stranger to a VP-44.



The point is, while the VP-44 IS designed and capable for 2 injection events, it is NOT operated that way in our Dodge application UNLESS the owner installs aftermarket devices that activate it - the VP-44 is used in other vehicles and applications besides our Dodge/Cummins - and while it MIGHT use both injection events in some of those other applications, it does NOT in ours as provided by Dodge.

 

[NoSeeUm]

First time I have heard of the two injection event capability of the VP44.



Up till now I had thought that a fueling box just maintained the fueling signal, coming from the ECM, for a few micro seconds longer. Common internet knowledge led me to believe that it just piggy backed on the ECM signal. In effect just keeping the fueling solenoid valve closed for a longer duration vice letting it open via the normal ECM signal dropping out and then sending a isolated second signal for it to re-close and allow more fuel to flow. A bit hard on the pressure pop injectors I would think.



This thread has taken a wild turn... .



Edit:

Suppose this is the reason so many people report VP44 shudder at high fueling box fueling levels?



Jim

 

[NoSeeUm]

If some of you guys are interested in timing and fueling. I started a thread over in the Competition forum. Not many interested there.



Timing and Cylinder Pressures



Jim