Clutch topic, different question

[John Berger]

I have a question that I need advice on before I go drop a bundle of money on a clutch that I may not need. When I first start out in the morning I do so in neutral. When I go into first gear or reverse with the clutch engaged, the shift requires a bit of effort, but when it finally goes into gear, there is no grinding or clunking. Doesn't this mean that the clutch is engaged and free from the input shaft? If this is the case, then I really don't have a clutch problem do I? Could the problem be with the synchros? or somewhere else in the transmission? I want to be sure about this before I spend the big bucks on a clutch only to find out I have another problem in the transmission. The transmission is still covered under warranty. I guess that's what I want to be clear on before I make this move. Thanks for bearing with me on this subject.



John

 

[claymike]

Hi John I have been emailing some of my TDR friends about the same problem with my six speed. In the morning when the truck is cold (less than 15 miles of driving) it is all I can do to get it in gear. After everything warms up I can shift it with one finger. I am tired of washing my foot prints off the windshield trying to get it in gear. Anyone else out there having the same problem?

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Let me see if I can help clarify the symptoms that these guys are having so we may get some others to give their professional opinions. When the truck is cold getting into gear, first or reverse, is very difficult. I had both try to do a proceedure.



First, with the vehicle off, put it into 1st gear, push in on the clutch pedal and try to start the truck to see if the vehicle would try to lunge forward. If it did at this point I would say the clutch is NOT disengaged. Neither of them had this problem. They are not hearing a grinding noise while trying to shift into 1st or reverse which kind of tells me that the clutch IS released and the input shaft is not turning. If the clutch was not completely released it would cause the disk to keep traveling forcing the input shaft to continue to turn thus giving a grinding noise while trying to get into gear. Clutch systems are pretty basic, they only disengage and engage, there is not a lot that can change in a clutch when the vehicle warms up which leads me to believe that if there is not a grinding sensation then it might be elsewhere.



Anyone with good knowlege or have experienced this for themselves, and gotten it resolved, please advise.



Peter

 

[RustyJC]

My 6 speed certainly isn't broken in yet (800 miles on the truck), but I note harder shifting in the mornings as well. I've just chalked this up to higher viscosity of the lubricant in the trans as I can also get some mild "crunching" (it's so minor that I hate to call it that) going into 3rd gear when cold - the old NV5600 characteristic. After 10-15 minutes of driving, everything seems to loosen up and smooth out. Even warm, however, there is some resistance to shifting from neutral into 2nd with the truck at a dead stop - don't seem to have as much resistance going into reverse. Is this similar to others' experiences?



Rusty

 

[claymike]

One other thing I noticed the other day, if I am coming up on a red light and put it into neutral say 1/2 block before the signal it is hard to get into 2nd. If I down shift to the light and then put it in neutral going into 2nd is no problem. I have 30k on the truck now and this problem seems to be getting worse in the last 3 weeks. Peter suggested changing out the oil which I am going to try in the near future. I put a lot of towing miles on this truck so it probably is not a bad idea. Dodge wants $130. 00 to do it so I think I will do it myself.



Thank you Peter for your help

Mike

 

[John Berger]

I think I'm going to go back to the Amsoil before I spend any serious money on a clutch. I talked to my dealer this morning and he thinks the clutch may just be wearing because I tow, but will not rule out something in the transmission. He told me I wouldn't have to worry about warranty consideration, either, regardless of lube. That's not the point of a warranty, especially in cases where the customer is making an effort to keep the vehicle in good running shape. This is a good service department and they will be putting my clutch in if and when I need it. I changed back to the factory fluid about 7 weeks ago. Then I had a good long trip towing my trailer with alot of good size grades factored in. Coincidence? I don't know, but I want to find out. For 45 bucks I can put the Amsoil gear lube back in and see if that's the problem. The batch I took out had 42K on it and got a good analysis from Blackstone. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[nps]

John,



Back on the other thread suggested it may be the shifter forks. What Peter says makes it even more suspect. Pop off the boot and pull out the shifter. If this trans is like other truck trans, you should be able to see if there are any burrs or excessive wear on the shifter, gates, or the forks. They are the common link between 1 and R problems.



R usually doesn't have a synchro so don't think synchros would be a cause for R troubles. Do you pop out and back in the clutch if you have a R problem to give the gears a little spin? I usually let out the clutch briefly when trying to go into any gear from N after sitting. Because once the drivetrain stops turning and the clutch is disengaged everything in the trans is stopped. R is very resistant if not lined up but has no synchro so it is either ready to go or not. 1 or 2 is a different story - the synchros have to line up and with nothing spinning them it is the shifter - fork - synchro hub - synchro ring that has to physically move the gear on the output shaft - not good.



A 6 speed has 1 and 2 opposing, not 1 and R. The gates on my 6 speed can be confusing at times because of the long throw. Once though I had a problem because after coasting in N with the clutch engaged for about 50 yds could not get it back into 5th. Grinded and finally dropped in with a big CLUNK - to reverse. No damage but now I'm much more careful with the gates. Thus don't know about Claymikes problem - haven't been following it. Doesn't sound the same as John's



John - What I don't understand is why you say the trans is under warranty yet the dealer won't cover at least the labor on the clutch. The throwout bearing is not a consumable wear item - neither is the master/slave cyl. Seems if the transmission is covered then mechanical failure (as opposed to normal wear) of the other items should be covered also including the master/slave set.

 

[John Berger]

nps - Thanks, I'll check into the warranty side of it. I didn't mean to imply that the dealer wouldn't cover the labor on the clutch side, I didn't bring that up with them, therefore I don't know. The first thing I'm doing is changing the lube. That probably won't make a difference, but it's the cheapest route to follow at this point. I didn't notice any problems until the lube was changed, so I'll start there.

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

I have had this exact same problem, except mine doesn't care if it is cold or warmed up. First, the dealer changed the fluid(under warranty) and that might have helped a little. I took it back to the dealer and they pulled out the transmission. The tech. told me the clutch looks fine. He said the gears and synchros looked really good as well. He said the only thing he could see was that the top plate was a little sticky. I believe that this is where the forks and slides are. He said that it was a one piece non-repairable unit, so he replaced it. After he did that it is much better, yet it still gets a little stiff once in a while, but nothing like before.



Dan

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Back on the other thread suggested it may be the shifter forks. What Peter says makes it even more suspect. Pop off the boot and pull out the shifter. If this trans is like other truck trans, you should be able to see if there are any burrs or excessive wear on the shifter, gates, or the forks. They are the common link between 1 and R problems

Very good point, that would be my next step.



Peter

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

You may or may not be able to see what you need by pulling the shifter (on 98-up)--you can't see jack with the 97-back design. If I had to lay down money, I guess I would say most likely the roll pin holding the fork to the shifter shaft sheared.

 

[John Berger]

Shift forks look fine

No metal shavings, no unusual looking wear or burrs or scuffs of any type that I can see. I checked my fluid level last night and it is fine, but that stuff is a darker brown than I would have expected after so few miles on it. Oh well, never a dull moment. Peter, I think you are right and whether I need a clutch or not, you got yourself another customer. I appreciate the help. Thanks to everybody for the information and the advice. Keep it coming.

 

[David Wheeler]

Hummmmmmm.....

Wasn't really concerned about this until reading this thread. Ever since new, my transmission has been a little tight. What I mean by that is, as I attempt to shift into any gear, cold or hot, I experience a mild amount of resistance and then the shifter will go on into the gear. No grinding or refusal to go into gear, just the resistance. Any one else experience this or is this normal and the same as described above? Best wishes to all



David

 

[Bob Cochran]

David Wheeler ~ How many miles have you gotten to? I am at 19,400 and the 5600 is getting better. I am thinking synthetic will help some to. You don't suppose the transmission like Cummins takes time to settle in!!!!

 

[David Wheeler]

Bob,



Thanks for the response. I'm at 25,000. It seems to be the same as it was the day I brought it home. I guess what I need to do is find someone that will allow me to take their machine for a small spin to elicit a comparison.



David

 

[John Berger]

Since I had the shifter off on Saturday, the truck has been as smooth shifting as ever. Going into gear from neutral, first thing in the morning, whenever. First gear is a bit difficult if moving and trying to downshift into it, but that's nothing new for my truck. What gives As long as it keeps running well, I'm gonna save my money for stuff.

 

[nps]

John,



Suspect your shifter may be binding. Taking it off and putting it back on may have been enough to chase the gremlins away for awhile.