Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Compound / Twin Turbo Suggestions?

[MMcCallie]

If i go bigger with an HX40, won't i loose spoolup? Most of my driving is stop and go accelerating at low speeds so i want to light the turbo as early as possible without black out traffic. Suggestions?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Blip of the throttle at 40 MPH will spin the tires... ... . yea right! I guess I missed some tuning tips of the years.



Mine will spin at 40 in 3rd if you lean on it a bit, heck it will spin at 70 if the charger lights hard, doesn't spin though, just rattles the rearend a little... ... new tires will cure most of that.



Jim

 

[MMcCallie]

I'm going to look at an HT3B for a good price tomorrow. I've had my stock turbo ported. Found out it is not an HX35. It is a WH1C, which i'm told by most folks is slightly more durable. Thrust bearing was already trashed and there was some scoring around the compressor wheel. New thrust bearing and porting where it had scratched anyway seems to have made it OK. Noticed a performance difference without the silencer ring so it is staying off.

I'm still finding it hard to believe that there is room for a big old HT3B, especially with the starter being down on that side for the Ford transmission. I still have that '06 manifold, maybe i can use it to help add clearance. But i have some questions before i even buy a turbo.

What sizes should i make sure this HT3B turbo has? I want the fastest spool up possible, yet to cleanup the smoke i still have even at 90 mph when i step on it. I have smoke when i take off but i'm hoping the AFC spring kit might help get that tuned up, maybe bring the boost in earlier, right?

How much should i expect it to cost for someone to fab the piping for me? I'm running water/meth and still making 1,500 EGTs at 35 psi boost. I'm hoping that adding a second injector just before the intercooler will help keep EGTs in check and possibly help with the smoke. I usually see a dark charcoal colored smoke with the water and a heavy foot.

My stock head bolts were retorqued and have surprised me by holding up this long with my timing at 18 degrees being hammered at high altitude. If i add this other turbo, will it be necessary to increase boost pressure to clean up the smoke? If i'm near or at 400 hp now, how close might i be to 500 hp with the HT3B? If i increase boost, will i definitely blow the head gasket?

I've been told that making smoke means the fuel that hasn't been completely burned is slowly eroding my head gasket. Does that mean i can't just add studs, that i have to remove the head and change the gasket? Does this mean it's time to o-ring too? In other words, is this going to turn into an expensive and time consuming project? Or can i just enjoy the cooler breathing ability, power, and hopefully better fuel economy for a while without creating new worries?

 

[GOT-Torque]

I wouldn't even think twins without pulling the head and installing o-rings. You could always take the chance that some do and just put head studs in and hope it doesn't blow the gasket. I wouldn't do it.



If you want it to spool quick with twins and stay cheap, keep your HX35 (or convert your HX35 to a dodgezilla (HX35/40)) and run an external wastegate. HT3B would be cheapest but a B2 can be found for a decent price as well.



Everything about a cummins swap into another vehicle is expensive and time consuming (not to mention having goals of high hp and high mpg).



I noticed you mentioned running water/meth and still making 1500 EGTs, just run straight water and it will cool it off alot more. Also, you don't want to inject water prior to the intercooler, it will reduce the efficiency of the intercooler. It works best when the incoming air charge is much higher than ambient air temps. I'd let the intercooler do its job first, then add more nozzles after the intercooler.

 

[12V Ford]

That ht3b will fit. It fit in mine and my brother's 99 ford and we both used the stock hx-35. We both had to make a new wastegate bracket to clear the a/c. We both used ATS manifolds. He had one like the 06 you have, but we couldn't make it work. I talked to PDR and he set us up with the guy that builds their piping and we just ordered the hotpipe and built the rest. Yours would be easy as far as fitting a 5" downpipe past the starter, it's the obs that needs some bashing. I o-ringed and studded, but my brother's been running stock bolts and marine gskt. for 60K now with no problems, but he tries to keep it under 45 psi.

 

[MMcCallie]

I bought the HT3B. Turbo looks good, no play in and out, just a tiny bit of movement side to side on the compressor side. I'll probably have it ported anyway. The guy told me it came off of a running big cam Cummins from one of his buddies. He said these big turbos don't spool up until about 20 psi. Guess this won't help me clean up on the bottom end at all, huh? What RPM will the big turbo finally kick in?

Yeah, i think i'll end up just flipping my stock manifold upside down, barely even room to do that against the a/c and heater core. The guy said his trucks made over 80 psi boost with over 800 hp. I told him i make maybe 400 hp now with smoke. He figures this turbo might take me right up to 500. That's my goal.

12VFord,
How do you like your HX35/HT3B combo? Anything you would do differently on either truck? Any tips or suggestions for tuning or making them fit? How much power are the trucks making? How many mpg do your trucks get? How much lag and boost? What are your max EGTs? My 1,500 is with straight water, no windshield washer fluid. The stronger the fluid, the more power i feel.

 

[12V Ford]

I really like my twins and my brother likes his. I don't think I would do it anything different except put a 14cm housing on mine and have PDR upgrade the hx-35. You will probably have to run the cold pipe between turbos out around the shock tower through the fender and back in. I'd set your top turbo wastegate to open about 20-28psi.



At the NMTDR dyno day we had, my brother made 450hp/1000tq corrected on a 175 pump, #10 plate, and 215 injectors. Mine only made 542hp/1000tq corrected, but my hx35 wastegate rod had come unhooked and it wasn't even starting to make boost until 2100rpm. I still hit 60 lbs of boost.



Mine gets 18-20 mpg empty and 14-15 pulling. About the same for my brother.



Not too much lag on mine, just slightly more than the hx35 alone. At about 8-10 psi it shoots up. My brothers is about 9-12psi, but were still messing with it. I've had mine to 65 psi and it probably could have gone a little more, but I usually don't go over 55psi. Max egts on mine are about 1400 and 1250 on my brothers.



Clayton

 

[MMcCallie]

Thanks Clayton,

Your mods look similar to mine so i guess i too would be over 500 hp. I'm curious, why is it good to have the HX35 wastegate so early? All the other numbers sound good. I don't see myself running any pipes through the fender. I have big coils under there and my huge tires would almost surely contact off road. I would definitely prefer to keep everything neatly routed under the hood. Did your brother have to have his pipe run through the fender?

 

[12V Ford]

Thanks Clayton,

Your mods look similar to mine so i guess i too would be over 500 hp. I'm curious, why is it good to have the HX35 wastegate so early? All the other numbers sound good. I don't see myself running any pipes through the fender. I have big coils under there and my huge tires would almost surely contact off road. I would definitely prefer to keep everything neatly routed under the hood. Did your brother have to have his pipe run through the fender?

Well I just got back from the NHRA races in Denver. I just love that kind of power, it puts everything else to shame.



My brother had to route his pipe through the fender, but there may be a way around that??? The wastegate setting is where it is starting to open at. Those numbers were told to me by PDR. About 50-60 psi max boost is about right on towing twins to keep drive pressure and egts in check.

 

[MMcCallie]

I've been running an HTB2 62/12 for a while now. It is slower to spool than the stock WH1C, which really bothers me since I do so much stop and go city driving. I now also have o-rings and ARP head studs. Once I get some major boost leaks in my intake manifold and elbow sealed, I should be ready for major boost.

I'm still contemplating installing my HT3B. With the 26 cm housing, will I be waiting way too long for the big turbo to light? Do I need to get the smaller 23 cm housing before even putting it all together? Has anyone tried this combo with both housings? My 62/12 boosts to almost 50 psi but EGTs are way beyond safe and smoke is not entirely cleaned up. Power is roughly 600 to the ground. Is it possible I can just wastegate the HTT to about 42 psi and be safe or will an expensive external wastegate be required?

I'm contemplating the HT3B so I can run hard without worrying about EGTs. Within just a couple seconds I easily exceed 1,600 at under 30 mph. There's no way I could be satisfied with an even bigger single as getting this 10,000 lb truck rolling is quite a task as is.

I've heard a lot of talk about S400 turbos being a hotter ticket. Can anyone comment on comparing the S400 to the HT3B for a big turbo? Will the 26 cm housing cause extra lag or will it just make that much more power on top? Do I need to wastegate the HT3B or can I just back out with my foot and how much boost can it handle? Any projections as to what I'll be putting to the ground? Also, does anyone have any links to some detailed installs of adding an HT3B so I have all of the parts and tools I'll need in advance?

I've given it a lot of thought and I think the only way I can make these turbos fit safely is to mount the big turbo above. I may have to clearance the hood, but that might also allow me to mount my TrueFlow XDI directly to the mouth of the HT3B's compressor housing. I figure the mounting brackets might come off of longer exhaust manifold bolts. I've seen a Super Duty that ran a Cummins with the big turbo down low and the heater core was a melted mess. Plus, if I blow a boost tube it would be a nightmare to access on the side of the road with my starter and a/c on that side. Just too tight with my coil spring buckets. Has anyone seen anyone else mount the big turbo on top? Any pics?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Shadrach]

... . I would think you could put a 12V manifold on a 24V but not an '06 on a 12 valve... .

Chad

FYI 12V and 24V exh ports are different shapes. Shadrach

 

[DCreed]

Where to begin, hmmm...
OK, the 62 has to go, it is too big to run in the RPM range you desire, get an HX35/12 and use a 1/2" spacer plate and a 38mm external gate going to the hot pipe, then add an S475/1. 10. this combo spools fast and is very street friendly while still keeping EGTs in check for a 600hp truck. The old school 3B/26 is a DOG compared to a 475/1. 10 and it(3b) is also physically larger and more difficult to fit in tight engine bays. The S400s also use a standard T6 flange and Vband comp outlet for trouble-free operation. The 35 only becomes a restriction at high RPMs and over 700hp. IMHO for a towing set up for 600hp on a low RPM DD the 35/475 is sweeeet. also you can find the S400s here : Borg Warner & TurboDriven

 

[MMcCallie]

Thanks for the link DCreed. Why do I need to get rid of the 62? HTT sold me that instead of the S300G claiming I'd be happier with it as a top charger and that the 62 is also much more durable. I certainly know it breathes a lot better than the HX/35. I thought perhaps because it is capable of more boost than the 35 that I might not need an external wastegate or blowoff.

I agree the HT3B is enormous and very heavy. With a 22 housing would spoolup be greatly improved over the 26, possibly to comparable to the S475/1. 10? I'm expecting if I add the HT3B I'd be putting down around 800 hp, is that a close estimate or will I not get that much more power out of it? I'm figuring since I have the o-rings and studs I might as well go for more power. Most of my driving is in town but I let it rip in the mountains. I currently live at 7,000' elevation so breathing deeper is essential. I have a 4KGSK so I can spin the motor but I do prefer the torque of lower RPMs. Dyno shows drop offs by 3k with my current setup.

I'm not focusing on what exhaust manifold to use until I figure out how I will plumb the big turbo. My stock exhaust manifold has shrunken a great deal, had to round out the holes just to bolt it back on when the new head went together. I figure some port matching would make the rounded vs squared corners a non issue.

I'm currently thinking I'll need the smaller turbo to be mounted tilted down either toward the middle or the front. Probably centered because of my huge alternator. Can't go toward the back because the big turbo will need clearance for the 5" downpipe to snake past the smaller turbo from above. Probably need to relocate my oil filter, its tough to get to as is. Is the HT3B/26 a turbo I just totally want to avoid?

 

[DCreed]

The 62 and 300G are the same turbo with a different comp wheel/cover so I have no idea why they said it is more durable? The reason I would go back down in size is twins are a mix of turbos and a good mix will have the fast spool of the small charger and the top end breathing of the large. You already stated that the 62 is laggier than ideal, and adding a second charger to it will slow spool a touch more. The 3b would be better with a 22 housing but still not as good as an S400 and if you quest for power requires more the 3b is not upgradeable as the 400 is and also because they rotate in opposite directions, cant be interchanged later either. If you want to avoid an external gate, the htbg or superB 57/65/14 is a great top turbo for towing and high elevations or lower RPMs and has a generous 14cm dual wastegated housing.

 

[MMcCallie]

Sounds like building a really good set of compounds will require buying two new turbos. If I try to make this a bottom dollar budget build, will I be unhappy simply adding my HT3B/26 to my 62/12?

Sounds like I will definitely have more lag, but will I get more mid and upper range response and will it drop my EGTs to a safe level? Right now I feel the 62/12 kick in strong by about 3-4psi. Where would it kick in if the big turbo is spinning with it? When would the 26 vs 22 housing light? Would all low end be lost with either exhaust housing? Will a 22 housing still keep me under safe EGTs? Considering costs, if the cheapest way will not be an improvement, I'll probably have to stick with my single for now.

 

[DCreed]

Adding the 3b will lower the top end EGTs significantly but will do so mostly above 2000rpms. twins will not change the top chargers characteristics just soften the hit when the charger lights it will feed the 3b and light it and then its ON. a 22 housing will move the effective rpm down about 400. that set is by no means bad, just not what you had originally asked for.

 

[therabbittree]

Shadrach just sent me this thread. . Mummn I'm attepmting home made twins in my 2000 Excursion too. . i have a build thread on th etdr in th econversion forum. . lots of pictures. The turbo i'm playing with is az ht3b but map width enhanced and has a22 cm turbine im pairing it up to a HX50 that had amodified 6cm turbine . . now it will have a modified 9cm turbine. . obivoiusly my twin setup is gonna be ultra low end towing set up. . it is because i already had the parts and figure i'd try them and it would mak eth etop / smaller hx50 live longer etc. That said if i would start over i'd do a borge warner s475 or 480 or so bottom turbo . . as the rotation allows the turbo to fit better in the engine compartment, as the ht3b is the opposite rotation, and its tight. . the excursions also have the rear a/c and heater lines in the way. The the regular super duty pickups don't have that issue. i am still trying to fab mine up. . i even though of running the bigger turbo in front of the a/c and moving my aircleaner in the front bumper or under it etc. .

Either way . . do you have any pictures of your truck? post em up that helps to figure out stuff. Thanks, i'm book marking this thread. Thanks Shadrach.

Deo

 

[MMcCallie]

Wow Deo, that's some project you've got going! Looks like a full time job. Yeah, I can probably get some pics up. I don't see it as an option for me to run the big turbo down low especially with my starter in the way. An HX-50 seems like an awfully large small turbo but it will be interesting to see how it does with that tiny exhaust housing. Very interesting, never seen a turbo like that. Wish yours was already running so you could tell me how you like the drivability. I'll have to follow your thread as well.

 

[therabbittree]

well it was running when I got it. . It had the HX50 turbo on it it was built by J. Mez Turbos. . it had a 6Cm turbine housing and it ran pretty nice with it. . it sounds like a jet engine with it ha. . it di get a little hot EGT wise. . over 1600 degrees pre turbo for short bursts. . but lazer cut dv, 370's, and no fuel plate. it would do 50-55 lbs boost... about 5psi at idle ha. . it also was very hard not to bark the turbo almost impossible if you let off th efuel to shift and even if you tryed to be smooth it would still bark. . I didn't think it would last too long with the 6cm turbine so i wanted my buddies dad to try and machine a 12cm wastegated turbine . . but he thought the 9cm turbine would be way easy to modify so thats what Im trying. . as for driveability it drove nice got 16mpg with 8" lift adn 37" tires. . it would black out the highway at full fuel / pedal travel, but if you drove it easy or half the pedal travel it was ok smoke wise... im still debating jsut running it as a9cm turbine. . as its a pain to work or chang ethings around. . and my pocket book is broken. . I'm just worried about it breaking on me . . that was 75% of th ereason to attempt the twins on this truck as it would have the HX50 working half as hard . . and last longer. . maybe ha

Thanks

deo

 

[12V Ford]

I'd say sell the 3b and use the money to get an s400. They're smaller and flow more, plus the rotation will fit better. You could put it in the usual spot without any trouble then. What ever you put under the 62, it will spool just a little bit slower. I'm going to sell my twins and do a s300g(57/65/14) and s400(72/87/1. 10). That should make a fast spooling towing setup and will fit better than what I've got now.



You could use the 62 on top, but your like me, the high elevation gets things hot. If your going to be pulling loads, you need smaller turbos to get things going. Or just turn the power down. You can't use all that power pulling anyway:{.