Confederate History (long)

[JPope]

"... I'm kinda curious on something. As I understand things, before President Lincoln called for a draft to add a load of soldiers to the US Army, Virginia was actually considering NOT seceding from the Union. It was the issue of sending a new load of troops that caused the Virginia legislature to vote to secede. ... "



"... loncray, I can't say I've ever heard discussions regarding the statements you made. It is possible that it is accurate, but I have nothing to corroborate nor deny those claims. Do you remember where you heard it? I'd be interested in reading this analysis... . "



I have been in looking in the following books, that I read quite a while ago, and believe this where I first saw it (know I saw it somewhere, and these are the most logical sources I have) but could be wrong, will check when the grandson gives me time, cannot have good books out while he is helping!!!:



-JEB Stuart by John Thomason, copyright 1930

-Campaigning With Grant by General Horace Porter, copyright

1991

-From Manassas to Appomattox by General James Longstreet CSA, copyright 1991 - obviously copyright is on collection of his memoirs, cause Longstreet was a first hand participant!!



Rebel_Horseman: Will let you know if/when I find it.

 

[JPope]

"... We had such strong leaders as Stonewall Jackson, Fighting Joe Hooker, Joe Johnston, JEB Stuart, Nathan Bedford Forrest, AP Hill, et. al. who were very capable leaders. Lee was definately our greatest leader becasue he did the most... not trying to discount that. ... "



I believe that one of Lee's greatest attributes was that the let the others (referenced previously) do what they did best, according to their personal style, and directed/counseled them, gaining their knowledge for a common purpose, rather than the Union side who changed Generals including Commander according to many reasons, many times. The north's generals were in competition for the top job.

Lee was class act, who was very troubled by the secession, and the war, but could not go against his home state, Virginia, which is another point for states rights arguement

States rights was very important in that time frame, being that many people never traveled more than a few miles from where they were born, and the south was much more rural than the north in 1860, and only knew of the Federal Government as a beaucracy in the distance, if at all. People today try to equate now with then, forgetting that times were really different, as with a lot of comparisons in history (especially made for movie/TV edited versions) which is all many people know.

 

[loncray]

I haven't read that many books on the Civil War (despite being in exile in VA for the past 17 years), so it's got to be someplace in my library - maybe The Killer Angels? Fictional but lots of facts in it.

One thing regards Lee and other generals such as Johnston - the Confederate Army wasn't set up like modern armies - Lee was commander of the Army of Northern Virginia - Joe Johnston had his own Army that was separate from Lee's command until the very end (at which point there wasn't much left of either army), and I think there were one or two others as well. The Union had several different armies as well. Up until Gettysburg, the Union Army seems to have been characterized by poor leadership and bad decisions. Once the Union took the high ground at Gettysburg, though, it was all downhill for Lee and his troops all the way to Appomatox Courthouse.



I won't comment on the political causes for the Civil War (I'm a Westerner at heart - the Civil War was an Eastern problem!), but a thread on the battles themselves would be highly educational.

 

[mcoleman]

I'm thinking that would be a long thread loncray. Has anyone noticed how long the Civil War movies all seem to be? I'm fortunate enough to live not far from two of the biggest battlegrounds east of the big muddy. Oak Hills and Pea Ridge. Oak Hills is known as Wilsons Creek to the Union folk. They are actually inproving it every year and even have horseback riding trails on the fields which is really neat. Pea Ridge has also went through extensive improvements. It's nice to see that someone still cares about the men that fought for both sides enough to maintain the hallowed ground they died on. I'm not as much concerned with the political causes as I am with current society trying to do away with all signs of the Confederacy and saying they only did it for slavery and shouldn't be remembered for that. Those of us in the south with relatives that fought here know what it was about. We aren't trying to dig up old hard feelings just keep a legacy alive for our children that some folks are intent on doing away with.

 

[mcoleman]

Studying the battle tactics used in the Civil War will actually make you appreciate modern warfare tactics when it comes to body counts. Jeez those people fought hard. Line up and walk towards the enemy without cover of any kind. Suicide is more like it. Canister shot was also a vicious tool. Hard to even imagine a field after a battle with over 50,000 dead laying on it.

 

[Jengle]

I pass by Manassas Natl battlefield almost every day. Almost hard to believe that many people were killed here, fighting thier own. I am another one that don't believe the history should be changed or swept under the rug, as they are teaching our children these days. Good, Bad or Indifferent, it's what actually happened and ignoring it don't make it go away.

 

[mcoleman]

I am planning on making an Eastern tour one of these days and checking out as many of the Eastern battlefields as I can. I've been to several in Tenn. and GA already but have never been to Manassas or Gettysburg. The battlefield of Vera Cruz Mo or Clarks Mill is also close to my farm and I have spent quite a bit of time walking around that place. Some of those battlefields give you a erie feeling when walking them. The old Jackson Port road runs across my farm and you can still see it where it runs across my front yard. It was a main throughfare from Missouri down into Jackson Port Arkansas during that time. And many a Union and Confederate soldier traveled along it.

 

[rroudy 98]

Lots of good information on this thread, the south is clearly well represented. I exchanged posts with mcoleman several times and would hope that all of us could refrain from drawing black/white lines. Yes the North acted in ways that no one should be proud of at times, and the south did as well. We have no reason to go on a witch hunt; as all of us know what we know from reading books... we were not there.



At the end of the day, are we happy that the south and north are working together to make the US the most gracious and powerful, and giving nation on this world? Isn't that the contribution of the brave men on both sides?



mcoleman has a great deal of respect for Robert E. Lee as we all should, his record as an honorable man was much better than any I have studied in the Civil War or since, but he did ask the south to retire the CSA battle flag and work to make the US a better place.



He knew back then as well as we all do now that it could not be done without the south, and the south should take pride in how events unfolded after the war.



Regardless of what anyone has ever read, no side won the civil war... . except all of us, we enjoy being Americans because of it.

 

[mcoleman]

This is what Lee had to say after he saw what the reconstruction was about.

Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand. "

 

[Greenleaf]

Rebel,

I love Civil War history and WWI/WWII. I mean really dig into this stuff.



I don't know who you mean when you say "We Fought"



That was a long time ago. Do you mean you'r family fought, or do you consider yourself a separate part of the United States.



Everyone was united during WWI and WWII. I'm not so certain now as times have changed and rightly so with the Vietnam war and all. But, I don't think this effected the Northern part of the United States any differently than the Southern portion. They were united.



The United States being the key word here.



Hope this isn't confusing but it's a valid point I think.



"WE" are all the United States.



Greenleaf

 

[Rebel_Horseman]

I don't consider myself a part of the United States. Yes, I reside in lands occupied by US soldiers and coerced at gunpoint into rejoining the US. As you see on all of my posts, I consider myself as living in occupied territory. The Confederate Constitution was never surrendered by Jefferson Davis, and in fact still exists in-place, albeit in a dormant state. I consider myself a Confederate American above all else.



When I say we fought, I mean that as a Southerner, I continue the legacy of the Confederate soldier. Do patriotic Americans not say "we were bombed at Pearl Harbor," "we dropped the atomic bombs," etc? It's the same principal. If anything, the country we live in today is more dis-united than ever thanks largely to the bureaucracy known as the Federal Government. Also, yes my ancestors did in fact fight and surrender their lives in defense of their homeland, and I do continue to carry that torch proudly. It may have been a long time ago, but as a Southerner, it is very much a fresh wound and part of my life. We shall never forget, and we shall never give up the fight for our freedom... "we still smell the powder burning and probably always will. "



Today we seem to be fighting a campaign of genocide in which the liberals, the media, and the left wing in general want to erase every bit of our history by any means necessary. That is part of the reason why many of us are very outspoken on this subject... we are fed up and tired of the slander committed against us every day.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Rebel,

How do you feel (and why) about Blacks, American Indians, American Japanese (during WWII) and Jews seeking reparations for what happened to them?



Brian

 

[Rebel_Horseman]

First off, this is not meant to be a discussion regarding race... that's best served in the political forum for obvious reasons.



To answer your question, and I hope this will not bring this post off topic, I din't think there is a single "special-interest" group that deserves a single solitary dime for anything. Yeah, the blacks were slaves 150 years ago. I didn't own any slaves, so why should my hard earned dollars go to them as a handout? I am part Native American, I don't think I deserve anything special for that, and I never claim it as such. The Am. Japs were caught in a time that the country was at war and they (the US governemtn) did what they thought was necessary to protect the country from spies and terrorist attacks. Not saying it was right or wrong, and in today's wonderful PC mindframe it was sooo wrong, but that's what happened. Jews don't deserve anything special either... why should they? Why should any of these groups be set apart and above any other group? Because they had some hard knocks before? Big deal... . poop happens. Cry me a river. Make the best out of it and get on with your life as best you can. A major problem with this country and the world at large is that everyone thinks they deserve something when things don't go their way. If thay have to overcome some obstacle, they feel they are owed something. I think it's an excuse for laziness.



For the sake of this thread, that is as far as I feel I will take this subject.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Rebel_Horseman

I I consider myself a Confederate American above all else.



.

Is that like Confederate Money?=no value?



CALM DOWN! I was just jaggin ya!!



You say some things that really make sense, then you go off on tangents I want no part of. All of it, very interesting reading!!!



I think maybe you aren't going back far enough. Instead of being a Confederate American, go back another 100 years. The original Constitution may serve your cause just fine, before it was raped, and interpreted to death.

 

[Rebel_Horseman]

Now with that Sleddy, I can totally agree with you on. I guess the Confederate Constitution was the last representation of a government worth fighting for and that hadn't been raped and interpreted to death as you put it.



I know I get a bit "extreme" in some of my views and I stand alone on them, that doesn't bother me. I know there are probably quite a few folks out there on the forums that agree with me but don't want to say it... I seem to not have that difficulty.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Rebel_Horseman

It may have been a long time ago, but as a Southerner, it is very much a fresh wound and part of my life.

Originally posted by Rebel_Horseman

Because they had some hard knocks before? Big deal... . poop happens. Cry me a river. Make the best out of it and get on with your life as best you can.

Interesting that you feel that the Civil War is very much a fresh wound and part of your life - too bad it happened 150 years ago. But for the Jews and Japanese that were imprisoned or killed only 60 years ago you say 'cry me a river'.....



Brian

 

[mcoleman]

Southerners aren't asking for MONEY to heal their wounds though are they? They just want history to be left alone instead of the myth makers changing it all the time and teaching our kids their pc myths. As far the blacks they need to really go back farther than just the US slave trade. They were captured and sold into slavery by other black tribes in Africa before arriving in the US. They were captured and traded to European slave traders for rum on most occasions. Maybe they should try suing Africa first. The Japanese treated the US prisoners like animals using inhuman torture among many other attrocities. My Wifes great uncle was on the Bataan death march and wrote a book detailing his experiences. Our Government and their suppression of his 1st amendment wouldn't allow him to have it published so he had to go to the black market to get it done. The Government said it would stir hatred among Americans toward the Japanese. It is a very graphic and very true first hand account of what happened to the soldiers on that march and in the death camps they called prisons. The Amercian Indian was another attrocity who much of his downfall and history can be attributed to Lincoln. Lincoln himself ordered the mass execution of 32 indians just to prove a point. He also ordered them off their lands and lied to them on the whole process. So yes I feel the American indian deserves some type of retribution for all of the land that was stolen from him. But they have figured out how to get their money back from the people who stole it by using gambling. It's working quite well for them. As far as the Jews are concerned we liberated them from Hitler so how is that part of our problem? Hitler murdered 1000s of them a lot like Ape Lincoln murdered 600,000 americans and American Indians. Lincoln also imprisoned 40,000 Northerners during the War for Southern Independence many of them being Politicians and Newspaper people as well as common folks that disagreed with his intentions. How are they and their families today different than the American Japanese we imprisoned during WWII. Lincoln had the Writ of Habeus corpus repealed so these folks sat in prison without being charged or having legal representation.

 

[Rebel_Horseman]

I can't recall saying one time that I ever deserved anything from anyone. I don't need your sympathy and I dang sure don't want a dollar from you, even though as a direct result of the war, the Southern population lost all it's wealth, lands, and natural resources to northern companies. The economy in shambles and the lands polluted with cannon balls and the rottong Union and Confederate bodies so as to inhibit farming, Northn companies came down here and bought up huge tracts of land for pennies on the dollar. Am I whining about it and saying the rest of the wrold owes me a special handout? Not hardly. The only thing I've asked for is that people who know only what the read in government approved history books, actually make the effort to dig deeper and learn the true history. I also ask that my heritage not be erased in an effort to appease another group the DOES want handouts.



mcoleman made very valid points. American's did absolutely nothing to the Jews... if they wnat reimbursements then go to the GERMANS. The Japs were put in controlled communities... the American POW's had no such luxury. Why is it that if something foul happens to American's (especially white Americans) then it's not really a big deal, but as soon as something happens to another special-ed, I mean special-interest group (especially if us horrible American's do it, and God forbid a white American do something controversial), then all of a sudden it's cause for a wich hunt, war crimes tribunals, and a general outcry?

 

[JPope]

"... American's did absolutely nothing to the Jews... if they wnat reimbursements then go to the GERMANS. The Japs were put in controlled communities... the American POW's had no such luxury... . "



I read something in the past that the Jewish people who did have claims against the Germans were pursuing remedies in courts (theft of art, businesses, seized accounts, material things, etc. ) What the problem was is the appropriate records may have been destroyed in Allied bombings, resulting fires, and other actions, including the Russians seizing records and no one knows where they might be, plus multiple Owners since and some prefer to hide what they know. From what I have read the Germans were meticulous (sp) in their record keeping, even to their detrement after the war.



As far as the Japanese, I have read that Koreans, Chinese to some extent (Rape of Nanking), but predomently the Koreans have pursused (Comfort Women) and won money from the Japanese. Do not know specificaly about Americans, especially POW's, but remember reading something about the US Gov't was a stumbling block as it was determined by the US Gov't that opening this door could have implications for future actions against the US in present/future military actions and that being a soldier had implied risks (if wrong, sure somebody will correct/enlighten me!). Also the Japanese have edited their history, so that many of the younger Japanese have a distorted or no understanding of what really happened before and during the war (similar to some histories calims about the Civil War), plus to the Japanese culture at the time of the war, they did nothing wrong, and were as brutal on their own people as they were on others. Japanese at that time felt that surrendering was wrong, and that when you surrendered you were less than human, and suffered a great shame, therefore were not to be allowed any priviliges. Sort of like what we are fighting overseas now, different cultures, different ways of looking at things, and imposing something different on a culture that has thousands of years of history/culture compared to our hundreds, no declared war, no total victory, so no total win, and to the victors go the spoils, but who is the victor!!!



All that said maybe we should start a new thread to avoid hijacking this thread on Confederate history, said the WORST OFFENDER!!

 

[ndurbin]

Would you include groups and leaders like Quantrill in your southern history? Quantrill killed 150 civilians and burned over 200 buildings in his raid on Lawerence in 1863. Or the Marais des Cygnes Massacre in 1858. Where 30 or so pro-slavery men killed 11 free-state men. Granted there were similiar acts by free-staters and others against Missouri and pro-slavery men. I can think of atleast one insistance where like 10 or so pro-slavery men were killed by free-staters. Just dont remember all the details.



Just curious as to your thoughts or opinions on these type of people that were on the side of the CSA, since you have pointed out a few of the crimes committed by Linclon and other Union leaders.