Convert 3-pin connector to 6-pin?

[rbattelle]

I notice there are lots of cool monitoring tools out there that connect to Cummins engines with the standard 6-pin connector (ex: www.simply-smarter.com , RoadRelay, Quickcheck III). Does anyone know of a way to convert the 3-pin connector to a 6-pin so we have the option of getting some of these items?

 

[rbattelle]

Ok, I checked my service manual and of the 3 pins, one is ground and the other 2 are "CCD Bus". If we could figure out what each pin in the 6-pin connector is, perhaps an adaptor could be built?

 

[rbattelle]

FOUND IT!

I found a Quickcheck II manual online, which happens to have connector pinout diagrams for the 6 and 9-pin ECM datalink connectors. I now believe a 3-pin to 6-pin connection CAN be built! It turns out, of the 6 pins in the connector 3 are UNUSED! The remaining 3 are: ground, J1587+, and J1587-.



The question now is, is "CCD bus" the same as J1587+ and J1587-?



Anyone?

 

[rbattelle]

Another update

Ok, I am continuing to research this (although there seems to be little interest at the moment!). Here's what I've got:



CCD Bus stands for "Chrysler Collision Detection" bus. This is extremely fishy... why would the ECM care about the CCD?



So I dug further. My powertrain diagnostics manual provides a schematic for the CM845 (Cummins Engine Controller). Sure enough, pins A4 and A5 are J1939 + and - connections. I believe SAE standard J1939 is fully functional with all Cummins diagnostic tools, via pins C and D on the 9-pin connector.



Well, pins A4 and A5 are connected to circuit D1 and D2 on the vehicle, which in turn are routed directly to - you guessed it - the engine data link connector! What I'm saying is, the CCD bus connector is actually a J1939 connector, which means I CAN make an adaptor to convert the 3-pin connector to a 9-pin standard (and possibly a 6-pin standard as well)!



Here's my theory: Dodge doesn't want us or Cummins to be able to run diagnostic tools directly on the engine. They want to force people to pay DC to do it, or sell them expensive equipment to do it. But since the Cummins controller comes with J1939 standard connections, they decided that they would just intentionally mis-label the connector pinouts, to throw anyone off the "trail".



I believe the next step for me is to find out whether Roadrelay and quickcheck will work with both the J1587 and J1939 standards. If they are, I can build a connector that will mate the 3-pin connector on our trucks to a 6 or 9 pin connector at the Roadrelay/Quickcheck III/VMS200.

 

[nickleinonen]

i am so interested in something like this for my truck when i get it... if it can work, that'll be so cool... . !

 

[GWDiesel]

3 pin to 6

rbattelle: Keep up the good work,and keep us posted. this is a

very interesting project you have researched. I think the reason

there is not more interest,is because the post sound's like it's

about a trailer plug adapter IMHO Good job! GWD

 

[rbattelle]

Well I'm glad someone besides me is interested in this! I will continue to post my findings...

 

[rbattelle]

I found some information on the J1939 protocol. Turns out it's a modern communications standard that is very fast (up to 1 meg/sec). That's good, because it means we can monitor parameters in real time.



I've got to go to the local Cummins service center tomorrow for some oil, so while I'm there I'll ask to take a look at a RR4 and see if I can look through the manual for it. If it's able to accept J1939 communications, then it should be adaptable to our trucks.

 

[mgonske]

I'm very interested, too! I'd love to be able to use the Road Relay 4, and was very disappointed to learn last year that Cummins wouldn't support it for the 3G.



I'd also ignored the connector thread, because it didn't sound like something of interest--thanks for posting to the Road Relay 4 thread--I jumped at that one!



Keeping my fingers crossed that you'll have good luck...

 

[AndyMan]

More fingers crossed here! PLEASE continue to update us with your findings!! Stick it to the man brother!!!



Thanks,

Andy

 

[KBennett]

I will offer my help as well:

I may be able to offer a hand as well and would be very interested in making this work.



My background is in Industrial Electronics and we use some CanBus networks in our systems.

Most of them use RS-485 type hardware(two wire differential) and you have to convert the signal to RS-232 for use with PC's, Palm Pilots, etc. If you use another device besides the one offered by Dodge or Cummins (RoadRelay,QuickCheck,etc. ) you would have to reverse engineer the software protocol. The other problem is that you are on a serial bus and each device on the bus may require a unique address ie: Master Computer = 1, Engine Control = 2, RoadRelay = 3. If you try to connect to the network and don't have a recognizable address the computer may not talk to you.



Are the door controls(windows, locks,mirrors) on this network as well?



Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Ladders]

Hey, count me in for the QC (have the unit from the y2k) and would be EXTREMELY interested in a conversion (if you can do it -- ??) that would let us read the info that DC doesnt want us to have. Ticks me off cause I specifically asked if the QC would be readable with the newer engs (that were talked about @ a Cummins Show & Tell) and was told it would always be (yea, right).



SOTSU!!

\\BF//



PS: at least the DRB connector is usable for some things thru a code reader.

 

[rbattelle]

Ok, I just got off the phone with Cummins Electronics technical support. I was told that although the CM845 has J1939 communications, "Chrysler blocked it" so that RR4 will NOT work.



But I'm not convinced yet. I was assured that the RR4 does work with the J1939 communications protocol. I wish I had an oscilloscope so I could see what sort of signal (if any) is coming from the port...



Ben, have you tried connecting your RR4 to your truck? Any results?

 

[KBennett]

Oscillisope

You will probably see the signal (remember you are on a network with many devices) but Dodge probably blocked the address for any device except the dealer or mechanic. What you would need is the computer the dealer uses to communicate to the port. Apply an oscilliscope to the wires between the dealer computer and the truck computer and you would then be able to decipher the signals going back and forth. I wish I knew the protocol.

 

[Diesel Freak]

The ECM uses a slightly different version of J1939. The SAE Spec gives you a discription of the Data Field, but... . it also allows room for the OEM to change things to their liking... .

 

[Diesel Freak]

something to think about

J1939 uses the 29 bit identifier defined within the CAN protocol shown in Figure 2. The SOF, SRR, I DE, and RTR bits will be ignored in the following description. The first 3 bits are used for determining message priority during the arbitration process. A value of 000 has the highest priority. Higher priority messages would typically be used for high speed control messages. An example of this is the torque control message from the transmission to the engine. A lower priority would be used for data which is not time critical. An example of this vehicle road speed. The priority field should be programmable for each DC value so that network tuning can be performed by an OEM if necessary.



The next bit of the identifier is reserved. The bit should be set to 0 for transmitted messages. This default will permit future use of the bit for other purposes as defined by the SAE committee.



The next set of 9 bits in the identifier is the Data Content (DC) field. The DC field identifies what data is contained within the message. The first bit is used as a page selector. The later 8 bits provide a page of 256 different values. Page 0 is intended to contain all the messages which are presently being defined. Page 1 is intended to provide additional expansion capacity for the future. Data Content values will be discussed further in section 3. 2. 1 and in J1939/2, Section 4. 4. 4.



The next 8 bits of the identifier are PDU specific (dependent on the message format). If the data content value is between 0 and 239,this field contains a destination address(PDU1). If the data content field is between 240 and 255, this field contains an extended data content (PDU2). This provides a larger set of values to identity different broadcast data.



The last 8 bits of the identifier contain the address of the device transmitting the message. For a given network, every address must be unique (256 available). This means that two different devices (ECUS) cannot use the same address.





3. 1. 3. Addresses and Names (Jl939/8)



Each device on the network will have at least one name and one address associated with ft. There are examples, such as an engine and engine retarder residing in a common "device", wherein multiple device names and multiple addresses may coexist within a single electronics unit. The device address defines a specific communications source or destination for messages, the name identifies the functionality performed at that address and adds an indication of the instance of that functionality in the event that multiple devices of the same type coexist on the same network. As many as 256 different devices of the same name can coexist on the network, each would be identified by their own address and the full device name which includes an 1 byte instance field to create a unique name for each.

 

[rbattelle]

Diesel Freak,



Thanks for the post. I'm interested in the fact that multiple devices can coexist on the bus with the same address.



I'm not sure how Dodge could "block the address" for any device but their own. I mean, the CM845 comes from Cummins, and the wiring for the data link connector goes directly into the ECM. In fact, in my powertrain manual ECM schematic there's a little box connected to the J1939 pins that's labeled "Cummins Service Tools".



Someone out there with a RR4 needs to jumper it into the data link connector and see what happens. I am, in the meantime, continuing to pursue this...

 

[GWDiesel]

The Search

Keep up the good work! GWD

 

[rbattelle]

This is long

Here's an email I got from Cummins about the CM845 engine controller. It's pretty bleak, but I'm pressing ahead anyways. I won't be convinced until I try it myself!

____________________

Solution:

Thank you for your email Ryan. We have little to say and know less about the Dodge datalink protocols after 2003 model year. They unilaterally decided to change to proprietary datalinks that interface with their DRB service tool, and the Cummins tools that used to be able to access the engine no longer work, or work to the same degree. We're not sure if there are interfacing hardware, software, cables, adapters or whatever such that - for example - the INSITE tools may be used with the newer Ram trucks.



Since they have responsibility for service and warranty during the warranty period, you should direct your inquiry to Daimler-Chrysler/Dodge. Cummins designs and supplies the Cummins 6B5. 9 and ISB 24-Valve turbo diesel engines to DaimlerChrysler, however, DaimlerChrysler warrants the diesel engine and truck completely, as a package unit. Cummins, Inc. and authorized Service Providers cannot provide warranty coverage on Dodge Ram trucks powered with Cummins diesel engines, since all warranties are handled by the Dodge dealers.



For assistance with Dodge Ram truck issues, Dodge requires a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for vehicle identification (i. e. , model, year, build plant, etc. ). Always have your VIN number available when requesting assistance with your Dodge vehicle. Customers should call Dodge Customer Service Hotline (800-992-1997) for assistance.



When taking a Dodge truck to a Dodge dealer for warranty service, you may also wish to verify that the service department is availing themselves of the diesel technician troubleshooting assistance that is available to Dodge dealers by way of their S. T. A. R. Hotline. Dodge dealers may call the DaimlerChrysler Hotline for technical assistance.



One disadvantage of this change in policy is that any Cummins shop would now have to have the Dodge tool, or the ability to interface to the 2003 and newer engines via some adapter to existing Cummins diagnostic and information products. Each individual service entitiy will have to decide if they do enough Dodge business to justify the incremental electronic tools investment; therefore, available support at Cummins Distributors, branch and dealer locations (who are certified for the ISB) may not be readily able to assist Dodge customers should the need arise.



We understand the business desire to drive service work into Dodge shops, and Dodge has undoubtedly qualtified the risk/benefit trade-offs between proprietary service datalinks (encouraging the customer to seek Mopar service) vs. the ability to serve customers overall (providing Cummins service options when Mopar isn't available, or is not able to adequately address a particular service issue). As their engine supplier, they are our customer and - of course - the customer is always right!



The advantage is that it forces (by leaving fewer options) the Dodge dealer to greater service competency in providing the ability to adequately address any and all Cummins engine service issues - this is a good motivation, since the truck is a Daimler-Chrysler/Dodge product.

 

[TBrennan]

That doesn't sound that bleak to me. They're just saying, we have no idea what Dodge is doing but they aren't telling us. It would be WAY to difficult to change things too much, they just want to discourage the average joe. I am interested in your research, so please press on!!