Coyote bait

[Skydiver]

The safe way.

Coyotes in the southeast are becoming over populated. If you are hurt and can't walk coyotes will surround you and the rest is history. Although this rarely ever happens.

Get yourself a lightweight double-barrel shot-gun. I prefer #4 Buckshot. And it will not miss the target. As for a pistol if you or your wife prefer smaller handguns get a revolver. The small autos just will not fit my hand and the action can cut the thumb.

Good luck and be safe.

Tim

 

[merryman]

On Coyotes and on . 38s and Coyotes



The Antelope population in the Eastern part of Oregon and to a lesser extent, the Deer population has been declining sharply for a number of years. The Game commission has done a number of studies on the problem and ONE of the problems is Coyotes. I can't recall the numbers, but they figure the Coyotes take a large portion the Antelope fawns at or immediately after birth. I once saw a film of a Coyote actually pulling a half born Deer fawn out of the doe.



Several years ago I shot a Coyote standing broadside at not more than 40 feet with a . 38 special. I hit him right behind the shoulder (confirmed when I found him), and he did not fall over!! He ran about 50 yards and stopped in some brush. When I ran over there he was sitting up looking at me. A shot behind the ear finished him. The experience left me with very little confidence in the . 38 for any purpose other than plinking. The Coyote would have surely died, but if you are thinking in terms of stopping some thing/one, the . 38 is not a sure thing. I now carry either a . 45 or a . 44 most of the time.



Vaughn



Vaughn

 

[cyborg]

I knew this website was full of shooters and looters. So much good advice on firearms out of a CTD bunch.

Remember rule #3!



The advice I want to share is get what you like and can shoot, and shoot what you get. I once let a petite gal shoot a 3" 44 Mag. She was better with that than most ham fisted men are with a . 22. I like the model 66 also, fine shooter.





But the most important this is always remember rule #3: Keep your F****** finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. I believe that one is the cause of most firearms negligence.



Also remember the politics of your firearm. A few years ago in Lake Tahoe a 'yote attacked a small child. While the father was attempting to rescue the child with a stick, a neighbor shot the varmint with a . 45 auto. Animal rights people wanted the neighbor charge with a whole slew of violations from discharging a firearm to reckless endangerment.



And remember rule #3... .

 

[MKinner]

i have recently purchased a S & W model 1911, . 45 ACP. i love the way that thing shoots. it does have a heavier feel to it but with the larger frame you get less recoil and it is amazingly accurate. i use cor bon 200gr hollow points for personal protection. cor bon seems to have a good quality round and has more power compared to others. my wife is even comfortable shooting the 1911! but like the other members say, it's all a matter of how well you know your firearms and what you are comfortable with.

 

[Loren]

Lots of good advice here. Here's my 2 cents worth:



I recommend a revolver for someone who does not want to become a "gun nut". A revolver is much simpler and easier for anyone to understand and operate than a self-loading pistol. If you AND your wife are willing to spend some time shooting, then a semi-automatic pistol will provide more rounds (cartridges) in the magazine than the 5-6 that a revolver typically holds.



Current law restricts magazine capacity for self-loading pistols to 10 rounds. My understanding is that this is part of the "assault rifle" ban that is set to expire in September unless Congress and Pres. Bush renew it.



As revolvers go, I would recommend a small-frame . 357 Magnum. It should be double-action. This means that it will fire when you pull the trigger and does not need to be cocked before each shot. It should also be small enough that your wife can lift, aim, and operate it safely. When I bought one to teach my daughter to shoot, we found that she couldn't hold it up and pull the trigger at the same time with one hand. Don't make that mistake.



(That mistake, however, required that I buy another gun... . "Sorry, honey, I reeeealy need this gun to teach our daughter to shoot. " Then I went and gave it away when the kid grew up and moved out. )



The advantage of a . 357 Magnum is that you can load it with . 38 Special ammunition. The . 38 Special is sufficiently powerful to kill a man; police departments issued . 38's for decades, until the recent switch to self-loading pistols. Anything that can kill a 200 pound human can kill a 40 pound coyote.



. 38 Special ammo is available with lots of different bullet types, including shot shells. One police instructor I met loaded his gun with one or two shot shells for the first shot or two and then hollow points for the remaining shots. He hoped that the shot shells would stop an attack without the necessity of killing the attacker.



Without addressing the wisdom (or lack thereof) of trying not to kill your attacker in a self-defense situation, I will say that he thought enough of the . 38 caliber shot shell cartridges to plan to use them against a man, and he was a police firearms instructor.



Summary: Get a small-framed, double-action, 3-4" barrel, . 357 Magnum revolver. Load it with . 38 Special ammunition. Shoot it enough to become comfortable with it. And above all, remember Rule #3 above:



Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.



This means until the gun is aimed at the target.



I hope you never have to use it, but it's better to have a gun your whole life and never need it than to need a gun just once and not have it.



Loren

NRA Life Member

NRA Certified Instructor

 

[aaronisbad]

A fine little handgun for women you might consider the Beretta Model 86. This is a smaller frame for a womans hand. Features a tip up barrel that eliminates the need to pull (cock) the slide back. This is an absolute wonderful feature for a gal that does not have alot of handstregth. It loads sorta similar to a double barrel shotgun, after that it is a fully semi-automatic pistol. I know it comes in 9mm and . 308 (not sure what all else) a woman can easily handle the little kick of a 9mm. Hope this helps

 

[jnelson]

A . 25 auto is a good caliber for women.



I will shoot any coyote I see. After the state started implementing rabies inoculation baits, rabies is almost unheard of and the coyote population has exploded.



They would acutally come thru our yard and chase our chickes with us home. Needless to say I lost 10+ chickes but there are 3 less coyotes in this world. A 243 with a good scope will do wonders :-laf

 

[Mike Ellis]

Listen to Rollie on this one (rlittle), he is right on the money for what you are looking for. Ruger made some nice little . 22 LR double-action revolvers, their little Bearcat . 22 LR single-action revolver is very slick too. I am partial to the larger revolvers so I am a big fan of the K-22 series by S&W, their kit guns are very nice and a bit smaller too.



If you are carrying a handgun for coyote use, you are very, very unlikely to ever need more power than a . 22 LR. Why? Because you will most likely be unable to hit a coyote at ranges far enough for the extra power to really matter. If you ever need to shoot at one while you are walking, most likely it will be at close range, and it is easier to make a quick shot with the rat shot because of the wide pattern. The rat shot will sting it and it will vamoose, if it doesn't then you only have to pull the trigger a couple more times to put a lethal dose in him. If the coyote is at longer range, the rat shot won't do much but sting him but it could help condition him to stay away from humans and their pets. And at close range, a . 22 LR Stinger is pretty stout and will get the job done in fine style.



Cheap, zero recoil, dependable, accurate, and small enough to easily carry.

 

[catoiler]

I kinda like the coyotes!They made a return again last week and helped out with the cat problem on my street!!A few more trips and the cat problem should be gone!!

(Don't really dislike cats just the lazy owners that let them out to DO Their duty on my cars,trucks and soforth!)Nothin like the fresh smell of cats on the seats!!

 

[TSpecht]

Sorry in advance for any potential dislike of terms or descriptions in this post.



I must politely disagree with the . 22LR recommendations. When in an encounter (man or beast) that requires you to take a target down, you want to use something with as high a probability of putting the target down immediately (aka stopping the threat) as possible. Unless you get a perfect nervous system (brain or upper spine or blood supply to brain) shot that target is not going to cease what it's doing until it bleeds out. A larger or faster projectile has a greater chance of accomplishing that (better chance of hitting something important or at least removing blood more efficiently).



I've had a few good hits on even creatures like woodchuck with a . 22LR, and occasionally they just kept running despite a few rounds that "should" have stopped them dead in their tracks (to include head shots). This definitely does not inspire confidence in it's ability to take down a creature the size of a large dog and hell bent on it's own survival...



That's where the larger caliber pistol or rifle/shotgun comes into play. You want to increase your chances of quickly stopping the action (remember there's no such thing as a magic bullet, it stops by either damaging vital organs/the nervous system or by causing significant blood loss in order to stop flow to the brain) Coincidentally best way to help make sure you're going to hit something important is to increase the size (or velocity) of the projectile you're lobbing, combined with practice hitting what you're aiming at.



The biggest concern is training to use the gun and your personal ability and willingness to practice. I would recommend the biggest gun (and caliber) you can handle effectively and have back on target for a followup shot quickly (for me this is a 5" "government model" 1911 in . 45ACP). Follow the same formula for the wife, go for the biggest gun/caliber that can be handled reliably and quickly, don't just automatically go with a small caliber, let her try bigger calibers. I would be willing to bet any money that the vast majority of women and children (of sufficient age to be safe when handling firearms) can handle 9mm or larger with proper training, and a large chunk of the same population could handle a . 45acp. Watch out for the new ultra-light weight guns they're making now in some of the larger calibers. They are nice to carry but the recoil is too punishing for me to want to shoot much and therefore practice with. I'd rather shoot my T/C encore pistol chambered in . 308win one handed than an ultralightweight gun chambered in . 357 mag or . 44 mag using the 'hot' ammunition one or two handed. Go to a range that rents out a wide variety of guns and try a bunch of different ones in as many calibers as possible. What's comfortable for anyone else to use, you might have problems with and vice versa.



If it hurts to practice you won't practice (or at least not enough), and that is definitely not what you need as is the most important aspect of self defense shooting is shot placement. If you can't hit the target where you need to or enough times in order to get the job done all you're doing is making noise. I'm a proponent of practicing with the same (or very similar) ammo to what you'll use for self defense for a number of reasons including being familiar with the ballistics of that load and making sure the load will still reliably work in that particular weapon.



Just like many other things, shooting (at least in a quick/safe/accurate/decisive manner) is a very perishable skill. I always cringe to see how unsafe and clumsy the majority of hunters I who only get their rifles out a week before season and fire 3 shots to adjust their scope. There's no familiarity with the piece when using it that infrequently.



I hate to sound like I'm preaching and I hate to disagree with some, but I think you'll be better off with the biggest guns you can comfortably shoot and practice with and get rounds on target with quickly instead of picking the smallest gun possible.

 

[KBennett]

I agree with TSpecht. The lightweight issue does not always apply to every gun however. This last weekend a friend brought his Springfield Armory "1911 clone" in 45ACP to camp. It was a special edition with an alloy frame and a steel slide. We shot some 185 grain target ammo through it and the recoil was pretty mild in my opinion. We shot some 230 grain self defense loads(HOT!) and they were still tolerable. I think the heavy steel slide helped tame the recoil.

I would take a serious look at the 1911 style guns in 45 ACP from Colt, Kimber, Springfield Armory, even Smith and Wesson has some nice 1911 clones now. Like I said before, my wife likes the model 1911, so yours may also.

 

[Mike Ellis]

I stand by my recommendation, it is based on experience with a lot of shooters and much personal experience with . 22 pistols carried in the field on a daily basis for years (starting at 12 years old). You have to have the gun with you if it is going to do any good, people "in general" are much more likely to carry a small, light, easily controlled handgun on a day-to-day basis.



If you can get the bullet into the right spot, a . 22 will get the job done on a coyote. Generations of sportsmen and hunters have carried a . 22 handgun on their hip with plenty of confidence all over the USA, and there's no reason why the lady who asked this question can't as well. I generally carry a much stouter weapon for 2-legged varmints, but I wouldn't worry at all about carrying a K-22 for use against the 4-legged types.



As an illustration of the fact that size of the gun ain't everything, here is a nifty Usenet newsgroup message I read several years ago and saved for just such an occasion:



******************************************************

Easily the best collection of statistics and stories on the subject of

ammunition effectiveness that I've found is 'Handgun Stopping Power' by

Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow (ISBN 0-87364-653-3). It lists

statictical summaries of thousands of gun fights broken down by caliber

and specific cartridge and has many brief descriptions of representative

events too. In the section on the . 45ACP they include this one to

illustrate the point that there are no magic bullets and that shot

placement and luck count for a lot too:



"The rooming house residents had been arguing all day. Finally, two of

them had tradded blows and vowed to go get their guns. They met in the

hallway. One was armed with a Government Model Colt loaded with hardball

while the other had a cheap . 22-caliber revolver. Our . 45 lover laughed

and opened fire. After he emptied his gun, he looked in amazement as the

. 22 carrier pointed his small revolver at his chest and fired once. The

auto dropped from his hand and he died. "



"The . 22 carrier went to his room, changed his clothes, and then took

two different buses to the hospital, where the doctors removed seven

rounds of . 45 ball from his chest. "



So what conclusion can we draw from that one? Well, other than to

avoid arguments, the only general principles that I can see are to always

take careful aim and to always have exact change handy for the bus.



Get the book. It's just packed with fascinating stuff.



-Jim Jonas

*******************************************************

 

[KBennett]

Get the book. It's just packed with fascinating stuff.

Geez, I have gotten into a lot of 45 vs 9mm arguments but never a 45 vs 22 argument. I am having a hard time believing this one and I wonder why the police and FBI don't carry 22's?

 

[TSpecht]

I'm not arguing with the fact that a weapon chambered in . 22LR can kill. With a perfect shot at close range a pellet gun could conceivably do the job. This IMO is more a question of using the right tool for the job and if we're going to face the facts in terms of energy and ability to penetrate . 22LR is a weakling compared to even some of the lower power . 3x caliber ammunition and pales in comparison to rifle ammunition. I have a Walther P22 which is a small pistol chambered in . 22LR. It's a nice toy and works ok on varmints -- rats, squirrels, close range woodchucks and similar critters. It sometimes fails to get an immediate reaction even with decent shot placement. This is *not* what you want when you shoot a coyote out of necessity. You want something that'll make a large hole and do significant damage in order to stop it immediately (or as close as possible to that).



If a coyote, rabid dog or other attacker bent on doing damage or finding itself a meal is attacking you it's best to fight back with a weapon likely to be able to stop the fight *now*. What good does it do you if you shoot the coyote several times (remember it's moving so a perfect shot to the magic death point on the target will be next to impossible to hit except maybe for the people in shooting sports who expend thousands of rounds of ammo per day practicing) in less than optimal spots and it continues to attack only to die after it's done all the damage it wants to.



All I'm saying is that many guns are available in much more potent chamberings than . 22LR with a minimal weight penalty but with a dramatically better chance of making it out of the encounter.



Also something to consider is how humane is the kill? I prefer to go slightly bigger than I think I'll need to do the job just to make sure the critter doesn't have to suffer needlessly. . 22Win Mag is the smallest I'd go for an animal that size, and that being only at close range. . 223 or one of the handgun calibers in the . 38 and bigger domain would be preferrable.



The Marshall and Sanow report IMO is about worthless... One shot stops vary widely from one person to another and depending on their physical condition and mental condition. Are they on any sort of drug? Do they just have a gigantic will to live? Some people drop when they get hit with a . 22LR and some people you can discharge some loads from a rifle into and they keep going. It all depends on the specific target you're shooting at. Even with good hits you are not guaranteed to make the target stop. Until a death ray is developed this will be the case. I can see no need to handicap yourself by under-arming yourself while other more powerful alternatives are available. You can list statistics until the cows come home but the bottom line is when you need to use a firearm you need to make sure you have one that will have a good probability of being effective. There are too many variables from person to person to difinitively say "this is the magic caliber"...



Would you go after a lion with a . 22LR? How about a bear, mountain lion, cougar, panther, or other predators? If not, then why not? It's a super stopper according to M&S's report.



I think it all depends on your point of view. Personally I'd rather have a more powerful piece than I might "need" just due to the fact that when something goes wrong you need as much help on your side as you can get. I've said all I need to say on the topic, and will now bow out of any further discussion on the subject...



I'm just saying that while under ideal conditions you can kill just about anything with a . 22LR, how many times are you being attacked by coyotes under ideal conditions, and just make sure to plan ahead and go with more than somebody's suggested minimum. Using a . 22LR is like using a small gas engine powered vehicle to tow something the CTD would struggle with. It might work under ideal conditions but when things aren't quite right it won't work and you're stuck...

 

[aaronisbad]

There is a reason why it is illegal to hunt deer with a . 22, it wont kill them humanely. God forbid you ever need to kill a bear, the . 22 is just about the last caliber I would ever want on my side. Of course a lucky shot with a pellet gun could kill a man, but in a real knock down drag out even a 9mm would be on the edge of light.

 

[GSaltzman]

A womens gun

My wife carries a Colt Combat Commander chambered in . 38 Super. It is loaded with Cor-Bon 125gr. +P's. She also shoots my 1911's of various manufactures. This includes a friends Officer's ACP with 230 grain ball ammo. The reason she loves them is they fit her hand well and she can reach the trigger easier than many guns she has tried. Just to add she is petite 5' 4" 110 lbs. So a mouse gun is not always the perfect choice for a women. No offense meant to anyone!

 

[Hemiless]

If bigger is better why not go real big 45-70 or 375 H&H then there is less to pick up in the end.



Seriously I think you need to find a range that rents guns and you and your wife need to spend a few dollars and a lot of time shooting different makes and different calibers until you decide on a make and caliber you both like. I say that because if she won't shoot it won't do either of you any good.



This summer my fiancé apartment was broken into while she was sleeping luckily she woke up and the perv exited the premises without incident. Needless to say that weekend I borrowed every style and caliber of handgun I could fine and took her to the range to find out what she shot best with. She settled on a full frame S&W 357. I was thinking she would like a compact semiauto 32 or 9mm but the semiautos were to busy and distracted her, where as with the revolver she drilled the target every time. This was true even with the semiauto 22's she shot she always did better with the revolvers.





I'm not one to advocate that there is a miracle gun or caliber that meets every need. I for one do think a 22mag would serve the purpose on coyotes. Something like a ruger super single would be ideal because you can shoot 22LR and 22Mag with the same gun but again it has to fit you and your wife and not me. So if you feel more comfortable with a little more zip by all means get what you are comfortable with.



I know a 500S&W would make a fine mess out of a coyote Provided you hit it that is. Welllll with that cartridge you might only have to get close. :-laf



There have been a lot of good post with a lot of good info but I think "cyborg" put it best minus the explicative of course.

The most important is always remember rule #3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.



Oh and I would like to correct or should I say Clarify something "loren" stated.

"Current law restricts magazine capacity for self-loading pistols to 10 rounds. My understanding is that this is part of the "assault rifle" ban that is set to expire in September unless Congress and Pres. Bush renew it. "

The law restricts the manufacturing of new high capacity magazines you can own all the high capacity preban magazines you want.



Best of luck in your decision and remember to always practice firearm safty.

 

[Mike Ellis]

Jeez guys, lighten up. I didn't post that excerpt to start a ". 45 vs . 22" thread, I put it up simply to show that a larger caliber isn't necessarily a "magic bullet".



Arguments about "more powerful" and "better" are all well and good, but in point of fact the . 22 has served quite well in the companion gun role for more than 100 years, carried by legions of outdoor sportsmen and workers with very good effect in the same sort of situation as the original poster of the thread. It is more than capable of dispatching the occasional murderous coyote, as demonstrated by the many coyote carcasses hung on the fences of surrounding farms and ranches - many of them taken with the lowly . 22 with no problems at all. Arguments against its suitability in the role under discussion appear rather weak compared to its century-long record of success.



. 22 LR may not be "the best" but it is "good enough", unless the collective experience of hundreds of thousands of Americans is wrong.



TSpecht,

You ask if I would go after a bear, mountain lion, etc with a . 22 LR. Yeah, as a matter of fact I wouldn't worry too much at all about going after one with a . 22 LR. Talk to a game warden sometime, and you might be surprised how many large animals like that are taken by poachers with a . 22 to keep the noise down. Enraging that people do such things, but the . 22 has been undeniably effective in that role.



Finally, for those of you who dismiss the . 45 versus . 22 incident I posted before, here are several more that came from the same source for your further consideration. Regardless what weapon one carries, always remember that you have to put the bullet where it needs to go, or it doesn't matter WHAT caliber you are firing.



(PS - it is my recollection that Marshall claimed the best manstopper to be the . 357 Mag firing a 125 grain JHP from a minimum 4" barrel - 90%+ one-shot stops. Although it may surprise some readers of this thread, he did not find the . 22 LR to be #1 on the list Oo. )

*********************

ca. Evan P. Marshall, 1988



. 45 ACP

The big auto, of course, is a very popular defensive handgun. Not

seen that widely in law enforcement, it is nonetheless what most

knowledgeable people consider a superior choice to save one's

life with.

I have carried one, and there is a certain emotional tie to that

big old jacketed slug. The actual facts, however, do not support

all the mystical qualities that have been ascribed to it.

I don't have any problems with those who prefer it to other

sidearms, but I do object to lies, myths and unsubstantiable

anecdotal stories about it.

Carriers of this round are extremely smug about the fact that

none of the horror stories are told about stopping power failures

with other calibers exist about the . 45 ACP. Well, I hate to

burst anyone's bubble, but read on.



FAILURE #1:

A southern cop, he was on midnight patrol in the downtown area

alone. Driving past an alley, he saw two men standing with their

back to him at a doorway. He called for backup, but decided to

investigate matters before his help arrived -- an almost fatal

error.

He yelled at the two men to turn around. They did and opened fire

with the . 45s they carried. The officer took five torso hits with

. 45 ball and collapsed.

He told me from his hospital bed, "Evan, I knew I was going to

die in that alley, and then I heard those *******s laughing at

me. " Pulling himself to one knee, he pulled his duty revolver and

killed them. His weapon? A S&W Model 10 loaded with 158-grain

round nose lead ammo!



FAILURE #2:

The rooming house residents had been arguing all day. Finally,

two of them had traded blows and vowed to go and get their guns.

They met in the hallway. One was armed with a Government Model

Colt loaded with hardball, while the other had a cheap . 22

caliber revolver. Our . 45 lover laughed and opened fire.

After he emptied his gun, he looked in amazement as the . 22

carrier pointed his small revolver at his chest and fired once.

The auto dropped from his hand as he died. The . 22 carrier went

to his room, changed clothes and then took two different buses to

the hospital where the doctors removed seven rounds of . 45 ball

from his chest.



FAILURE #3:

A motorcycle cop, he carried a Colt Gold Cup loaded with 200-

grain jacketed hollow point ammo. Making a traffic stop for a

minor violation, he was suddenly confronted by a revolver-armed

motorist.

The officer fired twice and then game chase as his attacker took

of on foot. The foot pursuit lasted for 13 block, until the bad

guy ran into a garage and, sticking the gun in his mouth, took

his own life. The autopsy found a . 38 slug in his head and two

expanded . 45 hollow points in his chest!!



FAILURE #4:

A U. S. military member with counter-terrorist responsibilities,

he carried a cocked and locked . 45 everywhere he went.

He and his wife were walking to their car in the theater parking

lot when he was confronted by three long-haired youths. They

demanded his wallet, and when he told them to forget it, one

pulled a knife.

The soldier's response was swift and sure. He pulled his . 45 and

double tapped the kid with the knife. Turning his attention to

the other youth, he suddenly heard his wife scream his name.

Turning, he saw the knife sticking from his wife's stomach. He

shot the stabber again and grabbed his wife. While in the process

of providing first aid for her, he heard a car start and saw the

youth drive away. His wife was rushed to the hospital where

emergency surgery saved her life.

While leaving through the emergency exit, he saw her attacker

walking in for treatment. The 16-year-old holdup man had taken

four rounds of . 45 ball in the chest and was still mobile four

hours after the incident!



FAILURE #5:

A citizen was in his living room, when he heard sirens on his

quiet residential street. Looking out the window, he saw a

sheriff's deputy struggling with a man.

A reserve deputy and IPSC shooter, our hero grabbed his

Lightweight Commander and ran outside. He had just reached his

driveway, when he saw the bad guy had the deputy's Magnum.

The reserve quickly fired three shots from his Commander. To his

horror, the bad guy quickly shot the deputy and opened fire at

the reservist. The bad guy then jumped in the deputy's vehicle

and escaped.

He was found three days later by the state patrol in a gas

station. He had to be forcibly subdued before they could take him

to the hospital where the doctors removed three rounds of . 45

ball from his back!



LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE



W-W 230-grain FMJ 79 51 63

W-W 185-grain STHP 30 21 70

Fed 185-grain JHP 36 25 69

R-P 185-grain JHP 26 18 69

CCI 200-grain JHP 46 34 74

*************************************

 

[TSpecht]

I know I said I was done but was incorrect...



The M&S data is interesting, however, the fault with the data is that it's on a case by case basis and cannot be directly compared. I've read accounts of people in combat being shot multiple times from M14's and continued what they were doing (although not being able to continue it as well they didn't just drop to the ground and give up the ghost after taking a hit). Sometimes when shot with a . 22 people or animals drop like a leaf. No two people are alike in how they'll react and the same goes for animals. The only way to make a comparison in how effective the device is would be to be able to bring the person shot back and shoot them again under similar conditions with something else... Even if you could do that, you would only have found the optimum caliber for that particular person, while others would still react quite differently. The . 45 failed to stop those people. That means a . 22 probably would have also, and possibly a 12 guage would have also failed... As far as I'm concerned the data is completely irrelevant and shouldn't be used to base a decision on what weapon is the most effective for a particular use. I go by penetration, expansion, how well a particular bullet holds together, and whether by the time it's a reasonable distance out it's still going fast enough to reliably expand. I think that is more important than looking at a bunch of historical data and trying to fit it to a model of what's most effective.



Hunting is a bit different in this argument anyhow, since when you're hunting if you're doing it right your prey doesn't know it's in the crosshairs until it's too late. That is much different from the animal actually knowing it's being attacked. Self defense is the same way. The person you may need to use it on may be on any number of different substances plus adrenaline all of which would help keep them up on their feet and continuing whatever action forced you to shoot them in the first place... I"m sure most animals have similar "fight or flight" defense mechanisms that humans have.



As a backup weapon a . 22LR might be perfectly fine. That's the role my P22 has. You wouldn't cut down a mature maple tree with a little camp hatchet if you had more effective tools like a double edged axe or a chainsaw available would you? My entire point is that while there is certain evidence exists to say lots of things have been killed with a . 22LR and many things including people have failed to die immediately when shot with . 45acp and even larger rifle calibers, this data is meaningless because what has happened in the past cannot be relied on to happen every time since animals and people are all different. It is dangerous to make an assumption that something is going to be "enough. " I don't believe my 1911 in . 45ACP is going to be "enough" if I ever need to use it. I merely hope it's a good enough balance of accuracy, speed, penetration, wound cavity size, and ability to make a followup shot to allow me to walk away from the encounter.



You can kill something by either hitting something important or by causing enough blood loss to reduce blood pressure to it's brain to where it can't function anymore. If you get a perfect hit you're golden. If you don't get a perfect hit you need to wait until it bleeds out enough to stop what it's doing. A . 22 caliber hole won't permit as much blood to flow out of it than an expanded 9mm, . 45acp, or any of the other typical self defense ammunition. The larger projectiles also have a higher probability of helping hit something vital if you're close but not perfect. Look at the difference in diameter. That increase is an increase in the probability of a marginal shot being more effective. You cannot make the assumption that the target (2 or 4 legged) is going to hold still and let you shoot it in the vital organs. That critter is going to be moving around a lot probably. Have you ever seen a dog or coyote attack something? It moves around quite a bit. Getting a perfect shot on target for a head or chest shot is not particularly easy in this case if the target is moving significantly. I don't think the original intent is proactively hunting these coyotes, I think the intent is having something around in case an attack happens. If a . 22LR is all you have around it's what you need to make do with. If you have a potentially more effective tool at your disposal that you can use accurately and quickly you'd be crazy to not use it... If I had a choice and it was accessable I'd take a rifle or shotgun any day over a pistol. I agree it's still not a guarantee it's going to stop the action, but an incremental step in the right direction. Remember you don't want it to be a fair fight, you want every advantage you can get...



Forgot to mention ammunition choice and bullet design can also be important. For defense I pick Gold Dot or Golden Sabre hollowpoints based on how they have performed in ballistic gellatin and a few various tests I've performed less scientifically. I picked those for the combination of weight retention, penetration and expansion, and similar factors. Will it work all the time? Surely I hope so. These are all things to consider that can potentially increase the possibility of stopping the action quickly. That is the goal, since if you're being attacked the primary goal is to stop the attack.

 

[KBennett]

First of all I am not trying to get into a heated argument about the calibers.

I have some opinions on the subject based on my own experience.



I am sure that statistics will show that many more people have survived being shot by a 22 over a 45. Yes, the 22 mag is a good poachers round but the poachers are not in a defensive situation when they take the shot.



I would agree with the 357 Magnum statistics but the velocity of that round scares me in a close quarters situation. The 45 was designed as a manstopper in a close combat situation to fight in a jungle situation in the Philipines because the 38 would not do the job. Being as wide as a barn it tends to knock down the intended target when placed properly. With the latest bullet technology it performs better than ever.



The best round I have personally used on small game is a 125 grain 357. I shot a large rabbit twice with a 45 ACP using target SWC rounds thinking it would drop it. I was so close I coud see the holes in it. A final shot to the head finished him off. I shot one with a 200 grain HP 45 and blew the backside out of it and scored an instant kill. I have shot prarie dogs with high velocity HP 22's and half the time they limp back to their holes.

A 40 grain V-Max on top of a . 223 will always do the job on small game but we are talking about handgun calibers.