Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) crap, that starter contact thing doesn't give you any warning

[Murle]

It's broke. Why do you think there are so many problems with the starter if it was not broke from the git go? Simple to inspect the thing and fix it if it needs it. I have insurance too, but I try to avoid that kind of hassle.

Joe, I have had a set of LarryB contacts sitting in my tool box for 2 years now. I am ready when the need arises... ... but it ain't broke yet might get 200,000 out of it

 

[Joe G.]

If you have them why not put them in? Are you waiting for a burned up fuel solenoid?

 

[Murle]

If you have them why not put them in? Are you waiting for a burned up fuel solenoid?

I don't have a fuel solenoid... 24 valve... . like I have said if it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[Joe G.]

Check with Howard Durand about procrastination. His starter burned up. You have one of those. It IS broke because the design of the contacts is not sufficient for the starter.

 

[Berrigan]

Way back at the biginning of this thread, I stated that I was working on a modification of the circuitry to avoid damage when the starter sticks.

I have it about ready install.

Unfortunately, my starter stuck last week. I had no indication that anything was wrong. Drove about a mile before the solenoid exploded and the engine quit.

The starter and solenoid are both toast. Warmed up the fusible link but it never opened. The fuel shutdown relay is OK but I think I'll replace it and proceed with the modification as planned.



Don't wait for the starter to start clicking, mine never did. Always started on the first revolution. No warning whatsoever.

The contact on the motor side was worn down about half of it's thckness.

The one on the battery side appears to be the one that stuck.

The starter itself is smoked up black and stinks bad.

New starter and solenoid are on the way.



There has been a lot of money and personal inconvenience caused by this abortive scheme and there is no reason it had to be wired this way.

Howard, please share your fix ideas with us. Any schematics before and after.



thanks Bill

 

[BigPapa]

Let 'em go boys! You can't tell some people NUTTIN'! :-laf :-laf



Scott

 

[Howard Durand]

The starter and solenoid came today and I have them both in the truck. Will have them working tomorrow. When I turned on the ignition to check out the solenoid I soon discovered that the pull up voltage for the solenoid was missing. Apparently the "Engine" fuse blew when the other things went south.



I am still going to put a large relay in the 12 volt cable to the starter. I bought two 200 amp starter type solenoids on eBay and have them both mounted in a 6' X 6" X 4" plastic electrical junction box, wired in parallel. They will be energized by the ignition switch which will, in turn, engergize the starter and starter solenoid. When the engine starts, the starter will be de-energized by the same set of solenoids.

I also have a 100 amp heavy duty relay that is similar to the ones used for the grid heaters that I intend to use to operate the fuel shutdown solenoid in place of the one mounted on the firewall. When I get it installed, I'll take some pictures of the lashup and post them here. I have a schematic that changes periodically but it is pretty much ready now. I'll post it also.

Right now, I am trying to find a crimping tool that will crimp #2/0 electrical connectors onto the battery cable. I bought a bunch of SMH battery connectors from a guy on eBay. They make it possible to plug and unplug batteries from golf carts and fork lifts without removing the wires. I want to use them to be able to remove and by-pass my relay box if needed without losing full use of the starter.

 

[Howard Durand]

Here is something else to think about. These are starter contacts. The top one is a new OE contact. You can see a portion of the contact surface has what appears to be a layer of silver embedded into the copper.



The two lower contacts are the ones removed from my starter that hung up and self destructed.

The one on the left came from the battery side, the one on the right fed the starter motor. Look closely at that one and you can see where it may have had a layer of different material that fell out, or the copper wore down much faster than the other one. I think this is probably what caused the starter to fail sooner than it should have.



Another good reason to at least inspect yours.

 

[Berrigan]

Well I waited too long. Yesterday my contacts welded. Larry B is overnighting parts. Guys this will get your attention in a hurry. It did for me. Bill

 

[surfbeetle]

Last summer, my starter began to click. It took several attempts to start the truck. I pulled the starter and installed Larry B's starter contacts and the plunger that came with his kit. Is there anything else that I need to worry about? You guys all speak of the fuel solenoid, does it stick because of the starter contacts? Or am I good until the next time the contacts wear down?

Thanks.

 

[Joe G.]

The way the start circuit is wired causes a stuck starter to feed back into the fuel solenoid and burn it up so you are good to go.

 

[surfbeetle]

Thanks a bunch!

 

[R C Cola]

Contacts

Would be a good idea to do an amp draw test on the starter after the contacts are installed. Sometimes if the starter is pulling too much currant, it can cause the contacts to stick. R C

 

[Howard Durand]

I have to back up a bit on my comment earlier about the possibility of an insert being in one of the original cotacts. The missing copper in the most worn contact exactly matches the contour of the contactor on the solenoid.

That would indicate a loss of quite a bit of copper just due to erosion. The new, after market, contact does have what appears to be a silver alloy inlay and should last considerably longer than an all copper one.

From what I hear, on the starters that have failed, only one of the contacts is normally badly eroded. The other one usually looks pretty good. I don't think that it makes much difference which side it is on. The one that wears would be the one that closes last and opens first. I would think that to get maximum life from them, it would be beneficial to make sure both sides make up as close to the same time as possible when new contacts are installed.

 

[Berrigan]

I have to back up a bit on my comment earlier about the possibility of an insert being in one of the original cotacts. The missing copper in the most worn contact exactly matches the contour of the contactor on the solenoid.

That would indicate a loss of quite a bit of copper just due to erosion. The new, after market, contact does have what appears to be a silver alloy inlay and should last considerably longer than an all copper one.

From what I hear, on the starters that have failed, only one of the contacts is normally badly eroded. The other one usually looks pretty good. I don't think that it makes much difference which side it is on. The one that wears would be the one that closes last and opens first. I would think that to get maximum life from them, it would be beneficial to make sure both sides make up as close to the same time as possible when new contacts are installed.

On inspection of mine I thought that the contact with the depression was worn more too. But I almost think it was made that way. The sides of the depression are perfect with no signs of arcing. In fact my contacts with 84 k on them looked pretty good, but still stuck. Also the plunger contact is spring loaded and can articulate to compensate for the uneven surfaces of the two stationary contacts. If Larry B is still following this thread maybe he can comment.



Any way mines back together with the diode on the trigger circuit and is working fine. Bill

 

[Howard Durand]

Bill,



JoeG and I have been carrying on a conversation regarding these things. He has a lot of experience with this type of stuff.

He has me believing that the motor side contact is the one that will always wear the most due to the direction of current flow.

That being true, on the battery side, the most wear will be born by the moving contact but, since it can rotate, that wear is distributed all the way around it's circumference. The fixed contact usually wears very little.



12 volts is probably not enough to cause the contacts to arc across as they come together. I think the eroding of the contacts is a result of their having to carry so much current through a relatively small contact surface. I would imagine that, if you could see them, when they close you would see arcing similar to what you see between the brushes and commutator on an electric motor. If that is true, I can see how the erosion on a copper contact could be so evenly distributed that it would look like it had been cut by machine.



Irregardless of how they actually work, it has been proven that the larger contacts will definitely improve the usable life of the starter.



My recent experience proves to me that it would be much cheaper to replace them periodically. "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is not a good policy. I intended to replace mine the first time I heard the starter "clicking". I didn't even know it was stuck until it was way too late.



Howard

 

[Berrigan]

Bill,



JoeG and I have been carrying on a conversation regarding these things. He has a lot of experience with this type of stuff.

He has me believing that the motor side contact is the one that will always wear the most due to the direction of current flow.

That being true, on the battery side, the most wear will be born by the moving contact. The moving contact takes the wear but, since it can rotate, that wear is distributed all the way around it's circumference. The fixed contact usually wears very little.

12 volts is probably not enough to cause the contacts to arc across as they come together. I think the eroding of the contacts is a result of their having to carry so much current through a relatively small contact surface. I would imagine that, if you could see them, you would see arcing similar to what you see between the brushes and commutator on an electric motor. If that is true, I can see how the erosion on a copper contact could be so evenly distributed that it would look like it had been cut by machine.



This is all supposition on my part. If anyone can confirm or correct this I would like to hear it.

Irregardless of how they actually work, it has been proven that the larger contacts will definitely improve the usable life of the starter.



My recent experience proves to me that it would be much cheaper to replace them periodically. "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is not a good policy. I intended to replace mine the first time I heard the starter "clicking". I didn't even know it was stuck until it was way too late.



Howard

Howard, I agree. Bill

 

[arthr31]

hi guys,

I'm a new TDR member, this is my first post. Awesome forum and magazine...



I'm wondering what this "click" noise might come out as? I have a '98 12v that when cold, the starter seems to whir for a second or two before catching. Something like a Katcheechaaaa kinda sound and then it turns over and the truck starts after a crank or two. This only happens on the coldest of days... . And, if I've left it standing for a couple to few days and it's been cold out. I have new batteries, and good charge... Other than that, it's a daily driver...



I'm concerned about the noise, esp after this thread! However, this is my first winter owning the truck... previously a ford owner, big difference!!! Thanks for the input!! -arthr

 

[Berrigan]

hi guys,

I'm a new TDR member, this is my first post. Awesome forum and magazine...



I'm wondering what this "click" noise might come out as? I have a '98 12v that when cold, the starter seems to whir for a second or two before catching. Something like a Katcheechaaaa kinda sound and then it turns over and the truck starts after a crank or two. This only happens on the coldest of days... . And, if I've left it standing for a couple to few days and it's been cold out. I have new batteries, and good charge... Other than that, it's a daily driver...



I'm concerned about the noise, esp after this thread! However, this is my first winter owning the truck... previously a ford owner, big difference!!! Thanks for the input!! -arthr

Sounds like the gear on the starter is not poping out to meet the fly wheel. Does it sound like its grinding gears when it does engage? Bill

 

[Howard Durand]

Arthr,

The clicking sound we refer to is when the starter solenoid is energized but the contacts fail to make up and the starter motor does not turn.

That part of yours is apparently working OK.

As Bill suggests, the mechanical parts are sluggish and not immediately moving the driving gear into engagement with the fly wheel.

If you hear some awful noises, like gears grinding, you should probably have it looked at.

How cold does it get there?