Custom ladder bars installed!

[Steve St.Laurent]

I just got back into town yesterday from a week of snowboarding in Colorado. While I was gone I left my truck at a local monster truck/off road shop (they race the truck Mongoose) to have ladder bars installed on the truck. I picked it up this morning and all I can say is it's AWESOME!! #ad
I'm attaching some photos of the installation. They were able to tuck the bars up where they are barely visible unless you crawl under the truck (check out the rear wheel photos, you can see the bar between the wheel well and the tire - from the side that's all you see, nothing below the body at all). I haven't had time for much testing but so far I'm VERY impressed. Driving home I noticed that the expansion joint shake is gone. The last 12 miles to my house are on a street with lots of expansion cracks. I could feel every one of them before the bars, there would be an initial jolt and then a small shake. Now with the bars the big cracks still give a jolt but no shake, the smaller ones I don't even feel. Evidently axle wrap is a large part of that problem. I did a few hard launches and the truck just hooked up (and sometimes spun #ad
) - no more axle wrap! The suspension feels so much tighter it's amazing! I can't wait for the next deep snow to see how they do there (axle wrap in snow was my main reason for adding them). Also can't wait for this summer to take the beast back out on the dunes! I couldn't use any more than 1/2 throttle last year because of axle wrap. I may talk to the guy next week about putting together a kit with detailed instructions (professional install HIGHLY recommended) for us.

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Passenger side front mount

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Passenger side rear mount (front view)

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Passenger side rear mount (rear view)

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-Steve St. Laurent - President of the Great Lakes TDR
'98 QC LB (CMNSPWR), 4x4, ISB, 5sp, 4. 10 LSD, TST Powermax, 275hp RV injectors, SW fuel pressure gauge, BD exhaust brake, Isspro turbo temp monitor, front Draw-Tite receiver, rear Draw-Tite class V receiver, BFG 285/75R16 AT KO's, (all the common stuff clipped)

 

[illflem]

How would they work and are they availible for the rears only?

 

[Diesel Freak]

WOW, I have got to get a set of those! e-mail me with all the particulars. Now that I am runnung 35" tires the shimmy you are talking about is really pronounced

 

[bholcomb]

I am also interested, could you send me some info when available. They look like the set Mr. West made, but a little more hidden.



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Brian
97 2500 SLT 4x4, 5sp. , 4. 10 LSD, Isspro boost and pyro, TST #10, gov springs, 370's soon, AFC kit, 16cm2, custom paper air filter, BLH 4" exhaust

 

[HEMI®Dart]

They did a nice job on the bars. You can hardly notice them. These type don't limit the articulation of the rear axle . They should be noise & sqeak free too.

Steve is right when he said he noticed a difference. All that wasted torque that was being used to wrap up the leaf springs and twist the rear axle downward now is propeling the truck forward. It seems like the truck shifts much smoother and wants to move forward instantly as soon as the clutch is released. Its hard to explain, #ad
but it makes for a much TIGHTER, smoother shifting and accellerating truck. It also takes alot of slack out of the driveline. IMO

Say goodbye to the dreaded wheelhop too. #ad





[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 01-20-2001). ]

 

[bigkavr]

Steve, thanks. Please keep us informed on any
"package deals" I really need some too.

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97 2500, extcab, 4x4. BFG 285/85/16 AT, "warmed over" pump, JRE Stage III plate, AFC spring kit, BD gov. spring seats only, 370 injectors, K&N, 4" Edwards Exhaust with Dynomax straight through racing muffler & 5"tip, (Cat got "lost"), EGT, boost, oil & transmission temp. gages, Low Stall torque conv. & BD valve body, silencer ring "exiled", Grover Emergency air horn and a multitude of strobe lights and switches (Vol. firefighter)

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Let me try and answer the questions posted so far:

Illflem - they locate the axle fore and aft so that it can't rotate under power. When you get on it the tires are rotating forward (action) which causes the axle housing to rotate backwards (equal and opposite reaction). With ladder bars that are properly set up (angles and attachment points) they will not let the axle rotate which then puts the power down to the ground rather than rotating the housing. On your second question - yes, only for the rear. It's not necessary on the front as it has a 4 link suspension that locates the axle.

Brian - they are very much like what John is running on his truck. As a matter of fact his truck is the reason I dove into them!! We went to the dunes together early this year and I could hang right with him (this was before I added my injectors) until the sand was anything other than smooth - then he ran away from me like I was standing still! I researched the Fabritech bars as well as the Sam's Off road bars before deciding on the ones I went with. I'm not sure if John's bars and heim joints are the same as what I'm running or not. I went with the advice of the owner of the shop after I went to him with the Sam's off road bar pictures and he explained the draw backs.

Hemi - As you said, I did some ramp testing and they don't limit the articulation at all. They are also noise and squeek free!! Gotta LOVE EM!!! #ad


I will keep everyone updated on the possibility of a kit. As I said in my above post a professional install is HIGHLY recommended. The angles have to be right and the bracket that attaches to the housing has to be welded on. I spent many months researching this before I decided on Michigan Off-Road for the install. You can see their monster truck (Mark Watrous is the owner and driver and did all the work on my truck) in Blues Brothers 2000 in the monster truck scene (it's the red and white Ford). This guy knows his stuff!

-Steve



[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 01-21-2001). ]

 

[SNOS FUN]

I'm very interested. I am eager to know if and when there will be a kit. What's the cost?

 

[boatpuller]

I was thinking about building something simular and was thinking about just drilling through the spacer blocks for the rear mount instead of welding to the axle housing, seemed easier. Just wasn't sure if that could pull the blocks out, I don't think it would.
Happy Rammin
Caleb

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1993 LE W250 4x4 CC,Auto,3. 5's,LS. . Diamondplate,PowerWagon injectors,K&N,Egt,Boost,trans temp VDO Vision series, BD 3 1/2" Exhaust, 16cm housing,Mag Hytec Diff+ Trans pans,Transgo TFOD shift kit,Roadmaster Active Suspension.

Caleb Reese (per forum guidelines)

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

SNOS FUN, I have no idea what a kit would cost (or if they are even interested in mail order). I hadn't even thought of a kit until I drove the truck home (yesterday) and saw the difference on the street. I figured not many guys would be worried about axle wrap as not many off road their trucks much. The improvement on the street was unexpected and made me think of the kit. I'll let everyone know if something becomes available - outside of that I'm going to try to get the information as far as angles, where to attach, etc from him so you guys can source it locally.

boatpuller - I wouldn't drill through the spacer blocks. I doubt that they'd handle the amount of torque we're putting down laterally, plus you would weaken them vertically as well. The Fabritech bars that I mentioned use a mount that sandwiches between the block and the axle - if that's the route you want to go then that's the way I'd do it. If you do a search on Fabritech you'll find a number of posts on their bars. One of the difficulties is getting the bars to work with a sway bar (if you have one installed and want to keep it) - it's very tight under there. I spent a few months researching my options and this was my choice - if you don't have a shop that you trust then the fabritechs (which are bolt up) might be a better choice.

The disadvantage of the fabritech bars is that they use poly bushings instead of heim joints. The bushings will limit your articulation. The Sam's off-road bars - http://samsoffroad.com/samsoffroadsto/Specialty.htm#Traction%20Bar - will also limit articulation because the axle is not allowed to rotate at all due to two attachment points at the axle. As it was explained to me (according to Mark at Michigan off road) that when a leaf spring suspension compresses because there is a solid mount at the front and a shackle at the rear that the housing rotates slightly as the suspension compresses - made sense to me. They stopped selling the Sam's off road type bars years ago because of too much parts breakage and also the suspension bind issue. Thw angle of your ladder bars and the attachement points (and angles on the attachment points) are VERY important to the performance of them!

-Steve


[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 01-21-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 03-12-2001). ]

 

[willyslover]

Steve. . Very Cool setup. . !!!
I'm watching for news on this one . .
see any issues with duals and this setup. . ie. mount locations & clearance ??. . if nothing comes of the vendor kit I would love a CD picture set to take to a local vendor... BE HAPPY TO PAY !!
with the HP I'm going to I'll need them, also the snow issue here. .
Thanks Gary

[This message has been edited by willyslover (edited 01-21-2001). ]

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I think Boatpuller has a good idea, it would be nice if a kit could be designed using a leaf spring spacer to replace the stock one to use as a mounting point. That would eliminate the potential problems associated with welding on the axle (proper heating, weld integrity, etc. ).

I am VERY interested in something like this on my 2wd but I have no leaf spring spacers. Maybe a bracket from 1/4" flat stock could be fabricated and installed as a small spacer. Because of my LSD I get serious axle hop whenever I venture out in sand or snow.

Vaughn

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Well guys, kinda bad news. He doesn't want to do mail order. I'm writing up an article for the magazine with his help with the specs on the bars, joints, angles, etc and I'll put the information on here as well. He said he'd sell the bars to me wholesale and that I could resell them but I'm not really set up for handling that and wouldn't be able to warranty them, etc. I am still considering whether that's something I'd want to tackle or not as I'm so happy with mine! I'll let you guys know when I have the information written up on them. Outside of that if you're in the Michigan area you could hook up with them directly. Just email me and I'll put you in touch.

-Steve

 

[David_VT]

Steve,
Very nice job!!

I have the Fabritech bars and have really enjoyed having the axle stay where it belongs. I think I have a bit less invested in mine, but not really enough to make a difference at the wallet.

I do like how your bars tuck up inside. Leaves a nice stock look to your rig.

The Fabritech mount will likely work better for any potential mail order expansion of your bars. Done properly, the plate is centered on the axle via the pin that runs up into the spring block. Your guy could probably fab something that would work with your bars if you wanted to create a kit for the do-it-yourself gang. Any such kit should include a replacement block with a bigger pin than in the OEM cast block.

David

 

[BigBadDodge]

I have the Fabriteck set up as well, here are a couple pics of the mounting hardware. the rear leaf spring bracket does look as though it would be easy to fabricate.

Front mounting
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Back mounting plate
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1997 Dodge Ram 2500 HD / Club Cab, Cummins Turbo Diesel (silencer ring removed), 4. 5" Skyjacker Double Flex suspension lift, 36x14. 5"x16. 5" Ground Hawg radial tires on 16. 5x9. 75 Weld Super Singles, dual steering stabilizer, 4. 10 precision gears, 33-tooth Speedo gear, Rhino liner, Grizzly double bent nerf bars, Bushwhacker flares, Kanduco grill insert, Confer super skid axle truss, DT Trac-bar, Moog tie rod system, Fabritech Traction bars, Energy sway bar bushings and end links. Truck Pic's

 

[Amianthus]

I would be interested in fabricating the units as long as I could get the bars with the heim joints that you are describing. If halfway decent instructions or a video could be produced describing the construction, I should be able to do it. Steve, please let us know.

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'99 2500 ISB QC SLT (No Leather!), 4x4, 5sp w/McLeod, 4:10, BD-II, PE, PE-EZ, 4"exh. , Pac-Brake, A-Pillar gauge pod w/boost and pyro, Line-X, V-1, lights, siren, lic. plt. frame says "Diesel Fumes Make Me Horny!", and much more goofy stuff.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

The problem I see with the existing Fabritech mount is where it mounts the bar. Keep in mind that I'm not an ME (although my best friend and brother are) and this is how I understand it from the guy who built my bars. He said that it was very important that the link where the bars attach to the axle housing be either straight up or straight down from the housing - not straight out to the front as on the Fabritech mounts. Hopefully there are some ME's here that can explain this so we can all understand. Now the same type of mount could probably be made to attach to the top of the axle I would think as well though.

In thinking about what he said and looking at it I think that there are two movements you are trying to stop with the ladder bars. One is the axle moving fore and aft relative to the frame of the truck (with some limited movement allowed for suspension travel), and the other is the axle housing rotating. I think that either mounting point will serve the first purpose but my guess (this is just a guess mind you) is that for the second purpose (axle wrap) you need the mounts at top or bottom. My thinking is that by having the bar mounted to the axle straight vertically from the housing the load is being put into the bars in a lengthwise fashion horizontal to the ground. If the bars are mounted straight off of the front of the axle then the load is being applied vertically to the bushings in the end of the bars rather than the bars themselves and vertically to the ground. That may be completely wrong (if so tell me please) but is just the thought process I went through after listening to how adamant he was about positioning. There are other angles that he was concerned about as well and that's what I'm going to publish in the article when he get's it written down for me. I know he spent a while under the truck getting measurements to get them set up properly before the install.

The second advantage of the heim joint style bar I see is articulation if you plan on doing any off roading. With the heim joints the suspension is free to articulate fully whereas the bushings in the fabritechs (especially the rears it looks like) would tend to bind articulation. I initially talked to this guy about mine and we talked about the sway bar and working it in with that, etc. He said if there was an off the shelf bar to go with it. I was then initially set on going with the Fabritechs, then was leaning towards the Sam's off-road bars once I found those. When I then went in to him with my info we looked at it again and I had the week away so he could take his time with it and he thought he could do a better job - that's what he came up with.

-Steve

P. S. Amianthus, check your email. Maybe we can work together on this for the guys.


[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 02-02-2001). ]

 

[David_VT]

BigBadD,
That truck is looking great! I have got to get down to MA and see that beast in real life.

Steve,
As always you've done some great research and put a ton of thought into your latest project!

 

[Little Bill]

Which ever bars ya'll go with, don't forget to put some safety straps between the frame and the front end of the bars. It will save some grief if you ever tear the front end loose. Anyone for pole vaulting ?

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2001 QC SLT SWB ETH 6SP JRE Spa Fabritech Practical Solutions

 

[Steve M]

Boy this thread caught my attention as wheel hop is a problem while backing a heavy trailer slowly into a spot. And the expansion joints are rough on I-10 in the Fl panhandle.
I'm surprised at the axle mounting location of the Fabriteck bars. I'm not a ME either but logic would say the mount needs to be 90* over or under for best control. In the old hotrod days, we used to use ladder bars that bolted to the u-bolts under the axle. Ground clearance was limited but it's not a problem unless you're really diggin' in the ground. The front mount was also positioned lower. At least for my application of towing on road and light off road, I'd like to find a set of these for my 4X2.

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98 2500 CC SB 4X2 12v 5spd 4. 10, -silencer, AFC+20, Edelbrock IAS, VDO gauges, Reese 15k Classic
97 Dodge Stratus 150HP
92 Harley Fatboy, Dynojet fuel management, Supertrapp 2-1
00 Jayco 25' 5th wheel, single slide