Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Dang it, I still can't decide - need more advice

[NoSeeUm]

OK I want to keep my Banks Brake so I need to install a bolt up turbo. I have pretty much decided to use a DodgeZilla with a 14cm housing plus waste gate.



So now if I use that turbo I think that I would really like to maximize its potential. This is how my truck currently performs. I would like, as an end result, for the truck to perform at these EGT levels plus 100F. Basically maxing out my EGT at 1200F WOT at any time.



With my current set-up, hauling my camper and pulling my boat I'm running approximately 15k gross rolling weight. I will be going to 285/75 R16 tires and I almost never run more than 60 MPH. Currently, when load, I can pull most any hill with no curves that I have came across at 60 MPH 5th gear and 1100F EGT.



The problem that I have is that I want Mach 4's and but I keep thinking that they could be just too much. They would be fine empty and worrisome loaded. This is even in the light of many threads I have read and people telling me that I "should" be OK. In the end, I want to be able to mash the throttle and not have to worry over EGT's at the same time maximizing my Hp potential.



I'm going to run F1's and so far I have been waiting on funds for the purchase any way. Which is a good thing, because I would probably and a set of each by now.



Please donate to me, your best F1 Mach number recommendation from experience so I can put this in the stern wake once and for all.



Jim

 

[Boondocker]

Jim,



I hope you get this figured out for me. I'm in the same boat, so to speak. I don't have a Helix cam, but do have F1 Mach 1. 6 injectors, billed as the ultimate towing injector. I'd love to have Mach 4's, but already drive by the pyro when towing, stock HX-35. Losing the exhaust brake is not an option. I haven't figured out if the SPS-62 is compatible with my Jacobs elbow. Is Dodgezilla the only game in town? I think I'll have to sacrifice some spool-up speed to get lower EGTs under load, so that probably means a 14cm wastegated housing. Unfortunately I have lots of time to figure this out because I've had to buy batteries, tires, and the fuel injection pump this year. Truck budget in distress



So Keep us updated on what you do and how it works out.



Thanks,

Neil

 

[EricBu12]

Get the Mach 4's AND get a water meth inj. This will add HP and lower EGT's 200 degrees

 

[Bob Wagner]

but the water meth only kicks in at above 20# of boost correct?



water meth can't be used at low boost pressure

 

[Boondocker]

Snow Performance has a Heavy Duty Variable Controller that can set the start (6 - 30) psi and max (15 - 70) psi boost pressures. The price of a high end water/meth injection system is comparable to a mild turbo upgrade. I'd like to hear from long-term users about the practicality of use - refills, turning the system on, and any other effects. I've heard of "cylinder washing", an excess of water that hampers combustion. I talked to one user who was very critical about the placement (depth) of the injector nozzle in the air horn for maximum atomization.



Every upgrade has its pros and cons. At the moment, I'm leaning towards the simplicity of a bigger turbo, the the trade-offs of slower spool-up and more noise.



Neil

 

[EricBu12]

I did a Hybrid turbo fron Industrial injection



I have a HX 35/40 with a 14 Cm housing... Max boost at 40 PSI... Lower Egt's as well...

 

[Jetpilot]

There are several good choices of turbos that will allow you to keep the brake... As far a towing it really depends on terrain, HP, and mods. Yes Mach 4's can be used with a good hybrid but there are limits. The water will help but keep the meth content low or egt's will still be a factor and headgasket integrity can become an issue.



Doug Smith

 

[NoSeeUm]

Thanks all for your interest and replies. I am another classic case of paralysis by analysis.

Get the Mach 4's AND get a water meth inj. This will add HP and lower EGT's 200 degrees

Thanks Eric.



I looked at this option just for pulling the hills, fairly expensive option. Eric would you care to update all of your upgrades. I checked your truck profile and your sig. I can't seem to find them.



A question though, if I have to drop to 4th gear, with my current 265 tires I will pull at about 2350 RPM at 60 MPH. With the 285's, I am guessing that my RPM will be around 2260. Whats your opinion at 2300 RPM and pulling with the M4's?

There are several good choices of turbos that will allow you to keep the brake... As far a towing it really depends on terrain, HP, and mods. Yes Mach 4's can be used with a good hybrid but there are limits. The water will help but keep the meth content low or egt's will still be a factor and headgasket integrity can become an issue.

Thanks Doug.



So far I have researched the PDR 40/35, the DZ 40/35, the B1-EX3 and the B1-2-EX3. These are all the "readily available" turbos that I know of that bolt up.



I checked the "best I could find" compressor maps for the PDR and the DZ. I am no expert, but it seemed that the DZ was capable of flowing more CFM and producing a higher boost pressure. The DZ giving up some low end CFM over the PDR. The PDR map basically lower and fatter than the DZ. They are about the same price. Am I correct in my thinking here?



I also know that the B series are about $500-$700 more than the DZ list price, but would I end up with a turbo that could handle the higher fueling rate of M4's over lets say M2's?



Could you put me on the trail of more options?

I hope you get this figured out for me. I'm in the same boat, so to speak. {snip]



So Keep us updated on what you do and how it works out

Neil,



Sure will do. The problem I have is that, I have close to zero practical experience combined with the desire to waste only so much moola to from trial and error. For $100-$200 more the M4's are a bargain, but only if you can use them.



I am not sure about the Jacobs, but I have measured the Banks Brake elbow. Judging from the OD I'm going to say that the ID is about 3. 5 inches. The stock elbow, as I recall, is just under 3 inches ID. Most of the turbo's that I have researched seem to like 4 inch or 5 inch ID outlets. So, at any rate it doesn't really matter what size turbo you get, the elbow may well be the choke point.



If I can't find a bolt up turbo that works, I'm going take a look at making a custom adaptor of some kind. I don't really want to sell my Banks Brake and then purchase another in-line 4 inch brake. Mostly, I was hoping to match an existing bolt up turbo to the maximim size injectors and keep the brake in place.



At any rate, keep reading TDR I'll let you know how it goes.



Jim

 

[NoSeeUm]

Neil;



If you are still following this thread check out the NWBOMBER's website. I asked the same question over there. These guys are more focused on bombing.



Basically, the M4's are out.



It was just not worth the risk to me. I decided to use the TST PM3, Catcher, DZ, M1. 6 route (maybe even less injector). The Hp can be turned up with the TST, but the EGT's are also controlled automatically. According to the TST hype, it is also able to defuel below stock fueling.



The Edge Juice also looked good, especially if you have not already installed gauges. But I feared it would also insert more problems.



The downside is tapping the pump wire and this bomb build costs more. But, EGT wise, I get piece of mind.



Good Luck;

Jim

 

[Boondocker]

Jim,



Thanks for the link. I have a feeling that I may end up with a bigger turbo, with or without an injector upgrade. I'm not taking my VP-44 to the dealer for a warrenty claim because I tapped the wire. I don't blame the Comp for the pump's demise, but don't think I'll go the tap route again either.



Neil



P. S. Oops, I shouldn't have said that about wire tapping, now that you bought the TST With the Comp on the upper levels and a hard run, I could not clear the smoke. The HX-35, even over 30psi, doesn't flow enough volume for that amount of fuel. So that brings us back to the turbo question... again.

 

[Hohn]

OK, maybe you guys who tow can educate me.

If I have astock truck that pulls a hill at 60mph on the cruise control, with temps at 1100°, it uses X amount of fuel to make the HP it takes to do so.

Now, I take the same truck and install Mach 4s. I'm still pulling the same hill at the same speed on cruise control. Overall required HP is the same.


I can't see how the M4s would all of a sudden produce insane EGT given the same circumstances. Assuming they have any kind of efficiency at all, the EGT difference in the SAME conditions should be minimal, shouldn't it?


I ask because I've actually experiences LOWER egts with my Mach4s in the SAME conditions as compared to my DD2s. Cruise on the interstate is consistently 50° cooler on average. Definitely no increase.



Flame away, but I'm of the mind that how much fuel you USE is the problem, not how much you HAVE.

If you DRIVE the truck like you have M1. 6s, you should be safe even with large sticks.



Someone convince me that I'm wrong, because all the empirical evidence I've experienced on my own says that injector size alone has almost NOTHING to do with EGT!

Justin

 

[nps]

Flame away, but I'm of the mind that how much fuel you USE is the problem, not how much you HAVE.



If you DRIVE the truck like you have M1. 6s, you should be safe even with large sticks.



Justin

Justin- all true BUT it's hard pulling your foot off the floor and admitting defeat to the traffic around you because you're getting too hot. Plus the hotter you run, the more fixated you have to be on the pyro. So with bigger injectors and no more air, you are no longer limited by the engine lugging up a hill - you are limited by the pyro and that's not fun.



So back atcha' - let's see if you can drive your 4's like they are 1. 6's. :-laf

 

[NoSeeUm]

Well... .



Justin I took your (and others) advice about the M4's very seriously. Hence my dilema, really from the very get go. I have been almost on the phone several times to buy them. But in the end, maybe from too many years around working equipment, I wanted a build that would more or less take the human out of the picture.



The M4's are by far IMO a better value comparing Hp to Hp vs $$ to $$ vs efficientcy to efficientcy. And you don't risk your VP44 like right after tapping the wire. But with M4's in my truck, I just figured that I would never stop worrying. I guess I wanted to be able to mash the peddle and not bury the EGT meter. I believe the M1. 6's plus DZ will give that to me or close to it.



Actually, I need some more in truck testing to see if I really want to much beyond the stock injectors. But read through this if you have not done so yet. This is something close to how I would like in the end for towing, but I just want to maximixe that Hp potential while I am at it.



So to answer your question, you are completely right. IMO it takes exactly the same Hp to pull a hill at 60 MPH regardless how much fueling potential the engine has. But in my case, it was simply fear of an overdeveloped right foot on steroids that scared me.



In essence with the TST turned off, that sets my base Hp to a safe Hp level EGT wise. With the TST on it will defuel on EGT automatically and even defuel beyond stock. Which is something very important to me and I am willing to pay the extra bucks to get it.



There is as much or more advice out there about not using M4's to tow with. At this point I have zero pratical experience and I can always add them later if I ever grow more peach fuzz on my face.



Dang another long post sorry.



Jim

 

[darkhorse]

If you DRIVE the truck like you have M1. 6s, you should be safe even with large sticks. Someone convince me that I'm wrong, because all the empirical evidence I've experienced on my own says that injector size alone has almost NOTHING to do with EGT!



Justin[/QUOTE]



That's been my experience too, Justin. I went with 3. 8's for EGT reasons but if I did it again, I'd probably just go to the 4's. I'm now driving an essentially stock '01 ETC with Smarty #9. As much as I miss the responsiveness my 3. 8's gave me, I miss my KORE suspension more. All I have to do to keep ahead of freeway traffic is to lean a little heavier on the skinny but I hate how the stock suspension bounces on wash board roads. :-laf

 

[Hohn]

So back atcha' - let's see if you can drive your 4's like they are 1. 6's. :-laf

No need to. My rig runs EGTs like it think it has 275s in it I'm breaking the law before I hit 1100° on the interstate WOT.

Now with a trailer on back, things would no doubt get toasty. But you shouldn't be doing 40-70 in 10sec with a trailer on back, either. Just bring the pyro up to 1000 degrees or so, and accelerate at constant EGT-- and don't shift into OD until you're up to speed. Wind out that direct gear!

I'm learning to drive the truck modestly with Smarty (#9) and M4s, but it's tricky to do.

On less responsive Smarty settings, it's a breeze.

They key to running large injectors is what Aretha Franklin wanted: some R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Respect the overfueling and what it can do vis a vis smoke and EGT, and you'll be just fine.

jh

 

[RustyJC]

Someone convince me that I'm wrong, because all the empirical evidence I've experienced on my own says that injector size alone has almost NOTHING to do with EGT!

Justin,



Towing with mods shown below except stock HO injectors - max EGT 1100 degF pre-turbo @ 30 PSIG boost



As above, but with DD2s - max EGT 1400-1450 degF pre-turbo @ 33 PSIG boost



Much more fuel, minimally more air, much higher EGTs.



Rusty

 

[Hohn]

I think what I need to do is just belly up to hook my truck to a trailer and do my own testing.


Rusty, what is your EGT @ 30psi with the DD2s?

 

[RustyJC]

Rusty, what is your EGT @ 30psi with the DD2s?

If you're asking what happens if I pull my foot off the long, skinny pedal until boost drops back to 30 PSIG, EGTs will be somewhat less. :-laf Next time I'm out, I'll try to remember to get precise data.



Rusty

 

[nps]

If you're asking what happens if I pull my foot off the long, skinny pedal until boost drops back to 30 PSIG, EGTs will be somewhat less. :-laf Next time I'm out, I'll try to remember to get precise data.



Rusty

Thats hitting the nail right on the head. You don't WANT to pull your foot off - you HAVE to.

 

[RustyJC]

Thats hitting the nail right on the head. You don't WANT to pull your foot off - you HAVE to.

Yep, I drive by the pyrometer and try to limit it to 1150-1200 degF on the long grades. :{



Rusty