2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Death wobble - help!

[dresslered]

Hey Folks,



Sorry for bringing up an old topic especially without searching the archives, but I am currently up in the mountains for the 4th and only have access to a very slow dial-up. I recall our trucks having the "Death Wobble" but having never experienced this myself, I really never paid attention to the posts.



Well, while driving up to the mountains this morning, I probably averaged between 70-75 mph without any noticeable symptoms. We then left the freeways behind for some back road country highways. Speeds slowed down to about 45-50 mph as I approached an upcoming town. Almost as I made it into town, the truck went into uncontrollable oscillations so severely that I thought that a ball joint or axle had snapped. I had no control of the truck with the braking and steering (thought it fortunately maintained a straight line) until I got to about 5 mph when it stopped. I immediately pulled to the side of the road to give it a full visual inspection. I inspected the entire front end and shook everything that I possibly could (very few tools with me on this trip). I couldn’t find anything. We continued on cautiously for another 60 miles on the same kind of roads without another incident. The only other time I have felt something like this has been in my '46 Willy’s when it had monster wheels and tires on it. Converting it back to stock seemed to have permanently solved that problem.



As far as the Ram goes, are these the symptoms those of you who have experienced the Death Wobble had? I have a 150k on the clock, tock wheels and tires, entire Moog front end (ball joints, track bar, tie arms, etc. ). I also have the DSS steering stabilizer and a Rancho steering stabilizer. The front tires are fairly warn but this has never been an issue in the past. My load was light. Any insight anyone can offer would be wonderful. TIA



David in the hills

 

[JLandry]

David,



There doesn't seem to be any quick and easy fix for the Death Wobble. Some feel it's inherent in the design of the front end.



From what I've read, putting on new tires seemed to help in some cases and for others adding positive caster (+5 degrees) helped... sometimes both. There's not much you can do in the field I'm afraid.



Good luck,



John L.

 

[dresslered]

David,



There doesn't seem to be any quick and easy fix for the Death Wobble. Some feel it's inherent in the design of the front end.



From what I've read, putting on new tires seemed to help in some cases and for others adding positive caster (+5 degrees) helped... sometimes both. There's not much you can do in the field I'm afraid.



Good luck,



John L.

Thanks John,

New tires could definitely be a start, but what faith can I have in this vehicle now? You start looking at the steep ravines right off the roadway in a new light. Like I said, I have never had anything like this happen before. The poor lady at the side of the road in Farmington probably has never seen anything like this. What happens when it happens at 75+ mph?

David

 

[ata]

Death wobble usually happens around 45 mph or less. Tires are usually the problem. Tires balanced cold can be out of balance warm or one of your front tires could be going bad. Put the rear tires on the front and the fronts on the rear.

 

[dresslered]

Ata, you hit the speed precisely where it occurred. I'll definitely be doing that and probably just end up getting new ones. I just find it hard to believe that the front end is that marginal. I've gone through plenty of tires on this truck and never had this problem in the past. In fact, these tires (Bridgestone Dueler A/T's) are much lighter than the Michelin's I used to run.

 

[B.G. Smith]

Look at the front suspension while someone turns the steering wheel from side to side about a half turn. If there is any slack or side to side movement you should be able to spot it. bg o

 

[JLandry]

David,



It seems as these trucks age, and presumably components wear, susceptibility to "death wobble" increases. This could be why tires that previously worked fine now start to contribute to setting it off. If you search the web, you'll find owners encountering front end wobble on all years and models of the 4WD's with solid front axles, not just Dodges. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't seem to happen on trucks with independent front suspension such as the Dodge 2WD trucks.



The good news is even though it's very scary and feels like the truck is going to self-destruct on the spot, I don't think I've read where it causes a true loss of control situation. All you have to do is carefully slow down far enough and it'll ultimately stop. It sure as heck can't be good for the truck though!



When you get back to high-speed Internet, do a search over on YouTube and you'll find a bunch of videos documenting front end wobble on Dodge Rams's a wide range of other 4WD's. Read some of the comments on what owners have done to try and eliminate it... that can be helpful in figuring out what worked and didn't.



Good luck,



John L.

 

[FourBarR]

J Landry is right about 2wd. mine has 556,000kms (330,000 +) never had death wobble. Has original tie rod ends ,bottom ball joints ,steering box etc. drives and rides like a car. Sure glad I bought a 2wd lot less problems ,and expense.

 

[VolsFan]

you said the front end is redone with moog joints, if you did not do an aftermarket fix like lukes link or 3rd gen conversion to the track bar I would check for play in it if you havent done so already

 

[dresslered]

Thanks all,

I'll definitely be researching this when I get back. The OEM components were so shot at 63k that there must have been at least an inch of movement in the front end when lifted off the ground. Even so, I never had the death wobble. I went to the Moog components (including track bar), heavy duty steering stabilizer, and DSS at that time. True, I am at 150k now, but everything sure does appear tight. I'll check more thoroughly when I get home.

 

[Royk]

I don't think age or mileage has anything to do with it. On my 95 I experienced it several times, always at 55 mph or above as I recall. I'll never forget the first time, doing about 70 mph on Rt. 80 through Danville, PA. Everything but the tires were stock and the truck only had a few thousand miles on it the first time it happened. My 2002 with 160K has NEVER done it. Both were 4WD.

 

[RustyJC]

If you search the web, you'll find owners encountering front end wobble on all years and models of the 4WD's with solid front axles, not just Dodges. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't seem to happen on trucks with independent front suspension such as the Dodge 2WD trucks.

Yep, solid front axles are prone to caster wobble; IFS setups, not so much. I've owned and towed with Ram 3500 duallies since 1996, all of them 2WD and have never had to replace any front end components nor have I ever experienced the dreaded "death wobble". That's one of a number of reasons I buy 2WD trucks for my application.



Rusty

 

[SRath]

Hey Folks,



... I immediately pulled to the side of the road to give it a full visual inspection...

And changed shorts?



Death Wobble is serious and deadly and is definitely inherent in, but not limited to, the lousy design of the coil/link/trackbar/control arm abortion dodge put under these trucks.



Leafspring solid axle trucks (1st gen) are FAR less susceptible, but can experience it, too. The ONLY leafspring truck I have ever had that white knuckle experience with was a K30 Chevy I had just bought and was driving home. The culprit turned out to be an out-of-round wheel.



It isn't that easy on these dodges. Virtually any and every worn component, bad wheel or tire, etc. , can cause it when you hit the perfect resonant frequency (like those galloping bridges). That's why you can seldom make it do the death dance when you want it to (for diagnostic purposes or to assure yourself you fixed the problem). It lurks, just waiting for the perfect combination of speed, harmonics, and the perfect tiny little bump to set it off. The unexpected suddeness is what makes it so dangerous.



Even replacing every component and "upgrading" with gimmicks like the steering stabilzer cross brace won't permanantly solve it. These dodges eat steering components and tires.



Don't overlook the possibility of a tire developing tread separation or internal belting separation. The unit-hub bearing design is very inadequate, too. There is no adjustment like real tapered wheel bearing offer (or maintenence ability). The bearings dodge uses are not tapered or adjustable and are very tiny and easily affected by larger wider tires.



It takes very little slop anywhere in that frontend to allow the harmonics of the resonant frequency to seize complete control. I will always wonder just how many deaths can be rightfully laid at the feet of the morons who designed this steering & suspension. But, hey, it's a small price to pay to have a pickup that supposedly rides like a car...

 

[RonY]

Reply to wooble

I have a 1995 Dodge 2wd W/ 5. 9l diesel. I had as routine all 4 ball joints replaced, idler arm,balanced tires (several times),looked for bent,cracked rims,new tires and this situation is giving me a fit,wooble,wobble,40 to 50 mph is bad but really never goes away. I have 226,000 miles on it and am wit end to get resolved.

I can relate to anyone who is dealing with this problem

 

[SRath]

Bad control arm bushings, bad shocks? Not much else to go wrong. Kind of unusual for a 2wd with good wheels & tires and new ball joints. But I could understand worn out shocks with coil springs getting a harmonic bounce going. But does it also have those doggone unit hub bearings? That's all that's left on mine and they're getting replaced with ford spindles and live-bearing hubs. If that doesn't do it, the cummins is going to find a K30 single rear wheel crew cab wrapped around it and I'll scrap the dodge chassis.



The guy that develops and markets a bolt-in leafspring conversion front end for these dodges, like have been so popular with the crappy torsion bar frontend chevys since chevy went away from a real axle, is going to make a fortune. Solve dozens of problems in one shot. Permanently.



Have you had your rims checked very carefully for roundness? Not just side-to-side straightness, but for actually being egg-shaped? That's what it was on that K30. Didn't take much either. Just a tiny bit out of round. But two tire shops failed to detect it when I had the tires & wheels balanced twice. The third shop, owned by a trusted friend of mine but farther away, actually mounted the rim without the tire on the balancer and checked for roundness and found the problem. Factory steel dually rim. Swapped the spare rim onto the better tire, balanced it, and tossed that egg-shaped one in the scrap pile. Nothing else was needed. That was a 4wd leaf spring front. Kingpins were fine as were the tie rod ends and the drag link and spring eye & hanger bushings. Nothing else to a bulletproof frontend like that (unlike my dodge).

 

[Bill Stockard]

Yep, solid front axles are prone to caster wobble; IFS setups, not so much. I've owned and towed with Ram 3500 duallies since 1996, all of them 2WD and have never had to replace any front end components nor have I ever experienced the dreaded "death wobble". That's one of a number of reasons I buy 2WD trucks for my application.



Rusty

Yep, the same with all four of my 2-wheel drive Dodges and one of several reasons why I won't buy a 4x4 Dodge. I drove a 4x4 Ford with a twin I-beam front axle for 297,000 miles and never had that problem. The only front end work I had done was replace two tie rod ends at about 250,000 miles because the steering got "sloppy". Yeah, it had locking hubs too.



Bill

 

[dresslered]

ThanksScott,

You gave me some more things to look into. Now for the exciting journey back home.

 

[fest3er]

Bad control arm bushings, bad shocks? Not much else to go wrong. ...

Agreed. Old bushings allow a lot of sloppy motion and cause premature tire wear. Bad bushings in the *rear* can also cause steering issues. (Ponder that a moment or three. ) Failed stabilizer links can also contribute to odd steering.



I believe these 4x4s have a caster or camber sleeve in the upper ball joint; they, too, can cause troubles if worn.

 

[SRath]

There is an uphill onramp about 20 miles from here, that has the perfect combination of dip & bump to set my Death Wobble off consistently if I hit it at the perfect speed. It is my 'test strip' for this truck. I don't get anymore Death Wobble since all the thousands of $ I put into the frontend, but the truck still maintains a shake and shimmy in the steering that increases very gradually over time until the left front tire disintegrates. The last occurance was a bit exciting as the tread peeled off the BFG tire and jammed up into the wheelwell locking my steering and sending me across two lanes of traffic and into the median at 70mph before finally ripping loose and destroying the wheel well liner, horns & wiring, tubular steel nerf bar under the running board, the running board itself, and the left front fender.



It was the second major tire failure on that left front on that interstate in a year. Last time, my 16 year old son was driving. Once is an incident. Twice is a pattern. Something about that insidious shake is causing the tires to come apart internally. Changing tire & wheel positions does nothing. This most recent ride happened just after passing two semis and pulling into the clear ahead of them. A few seconds sooner...



So it isn't Death Wobble anymore, but it is still Death Shake. How much more time & money do I spend on this truck and how much do I continue to trust my family's lives to it? Some here believe I am too harsh in my criticism of the engineering of the dodge chassis, but they don't own this truck and it deserves to be harshly criticized. To one degree or another, this Dodge death wobble is far too common on virtually ALL of these trucks to be anything but a design defect. The very term "Death Wobble" was coined just for these Dodges. Chrysler should be sued and the CEO & engineers & beancounters ordered by the court to drive one of these POS until they are all fixed. And I would make sure they have to drive one at least ten years old and trust their lives to the crappy tin brake lines, too.



It has been to two frame and axle shops to be carefully checked out, measured, inspected, and aligned. It has had all the expensive upgrades except the live-bearing hub conversion. It has had every effort to redeem it done. It has more money spent just on the frontend than I have paid for entire trucks with far superior design (any older chevy or dodge). It still sucks. But I'm stubborn and have a great deal invested in it, and I love the cummins, so I keep plugging away as I get the money at solving the problem.



If I could find a complete and affordable conversion package to drop the Cummins in my K30 without spending time and money chasing down parts everywhere, I would probably just do it. I know it has been done many times, but I cannot have the truck out of action for any length of time. I drive the K30 occassionally, and my son's K20 frequently, and the K30 with it's SoftRide 2 1/2" lift leafsprings and 37" military tires outrides and outsteers the dodge by a country mile. But with fuel costs being what they are, the cummins is better than the tired 454 economically.

 

[dresslered]

I love the cummins, so I keep plugging away...

Feeling is mutual. I just got home an hour ago and inspected it a little more. If I crank the wheels all the way to the right, looks like my tie rods, track bar, etc. are all shot. I thought that I solved this by going to Moog! Please tell me it is not the ball joints again as well. Looks like I have to find a local shop as with everything going on, I don't have time to do anything myself anymore. Is there anything out there that fixes this once and for all or do I just replace components with oil change? #@$%!