Diesel oil in a gasser? Who's doing it, what results?

[Gary - K7GLD]

Yeah, this has probably been kicked around here before - and appropriate pointers here or elsewhere are welcome - Wayne-Amsoilman, like to see your comments.



It's like this - we just bought a used motorhome with a GM 454 big block gas engine, and as with my Dodge/Cummins, I want the best possible lube for use in this engine that already has nearly 60K miles, but starts and runs great.



I'm very satisfied with the DELO 400 CI-4 Plus I use in the Cummins - but is the diesel lube formulation and slightly high viscosity an issue in a gas engine in MH service? My next choice would be whatever Amsoil product is recommended as best for this sort of heavy duty use in a gas engine with this mileage - my own past experience - regardless of what Amsoil or their reps say, is that the synthetics tend to "find" leakage spots in older engine gaskets that probably were NOT an issue with the dino lubes - so will religiously go over all accessible gaskets to tighten them up a tad to head off that problem, if the synthetic turns out to be the best way to go.



So, lets hear whatever you guys have to say on either the diesel lube in a gasser, OR your on views on performance of lubes like Amsoil in the same service...

 

[BILLVO]

Years ago We ran nothing but Conoco 15w40 dyno oil in everything from lawn mowers to Steiger tractors year round and had no problems at all.

 

[fest3er]

FWIW, synthetics don't necessarily 'find' marginal seals. What typically happens is that seals can tend to collect sludge and harden over time. The sludge serves to help maintain the seal. A top-quality oil with a high TBN will tend to loosen and remove sludge form the engine. This is why Amsoil recommends using engine flush and a new filter: to loosen and eliminate a lot of sludge before switching to Amsoil lube and filter.

I would suggest using the lube the engine calls for. However, if it wants 10W40 and you don't run the MH in frigid temps, you should be able to use 15W40 in it without trouble. Remember that 15W40 behaves like a 15 viscosity oil when cold, but like a 40 viscosity oil when hot. The lube might be thicker than desired when frigid, but close enough to OK at warmer, summer temps; and when it's at operating temp, it'll be quite close to the desired 40 viscosity.

Personally, I think you should switch it to Amsoil: engine, diff and trans lube and filters. Install a fresh throw-away oil filter and run the recommend amount of engine flush in the oil, at 'high idle' for 20 minutes (IIRC) to clean out any sludge first. The MH application may not allow you to run the oil and filter for the usual 25,000 mile interval; you certainly should not need to change the oil every 3,000 miles, though. Running Amsoil, you should see at least a 2% increase in fuel economy; you might see more (some gassers have gone up 5-7%, IIRC).

'Tis your choice, sir! Whichever you choose, you ought to choose the best lube and filters available. PM me if you need a source for Amsoil.

 

[AClayton]

I agree with Neal. I used to own a 454 powered MH and now have the 8. 1 in my present one. They are good motors and deserve the best oil for the enviroment they are subjected to... lots and lots of HEAT!!I would also consider the Banks Powerpack upgrade,and very similar to our diesels,the exhaust and intakes that come with these RV chassis are very restrictive... . lots more power available!



Off topic I know..... From reading and following all of your posts over the past couple of yrs... you seem to be very 'scientific' where trucks are concerned. With that said,you will immediately notice the ridiculous engine temp gauge in the dash is a POS!!Climbing grades will send the needle past the safe mark at times,when in actuality,it is a mere 20* above the normal mark as tested with a thermometer on the hottest part of the radiator. I spent hundreds of dollars and researched RV magazines for mos. in an effort to repair something that I THOUGHT was wrong but nothing was. As a sidenote,the web wasn't a positive source of info in those days and many didn't even own a computer in the early 90's.



Anyway,start a thread in the appropriate forum and I'll find it and help you in any way I can... if you want!!



Alan

 

[Garlic]

I ran Rotella T 15w-40 in my V-10 Gasser for 140,000 miles, no issues out side of the odor of the oil, for about 10 years that was all I used in all of my gassers. I worked for an engine rebuilder and we did alot of Motor homes and it was the only oil we would use. The newer vehicals require a different weight and spec of oil and I would not use anything but what the manufacture recommended in them. An older unit with a 454 would love a diesel rated 15w-40 motor oil. IMHO

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the comments guys ~



I've really respected the quality of the DELO 400 CI-4Plus I use in my truck - the Moly and other anti-wear components make it the absolute BEST in my book as far as a conventional dino oil is concerned, and especially in a vehicle that sees regular usage. And, of course, oil quality and specifications have changed considerably in the years since this MH was originally built.



That said, I use Amsoil in all my smaller engines that see irregular use and then extended storage - the synthetics excel in long-term stability in storage, as well as in temperature extremes, such as my Honda 2KW generator, and my Nissan 10 HP outboard motor.



A marine, OR motorhome engine operate under unique conditions - especially a MH - they are under constant load because of the wind drag and weight - plus added loads of steep grades in seriously changing altitudes and heat when driven in mountainous terrain as we live in - and then, they may sit for months in the off season or between other uses - exactly the sort of usage that would benefit from a good quality synthetic. The same goes for the Onan 4KW generator in the MH we will be getting.



The MH itself - for those curious - is an '88 Winnebago Chieftan - it's in great cosmetic and mechanical condition, with a relatively low 56K miles on it - it's a pretty neat, well kept and quality unit - and I'd really like to keep it that way!

 

[AClayton]

Thanks for the comments guys ~



I've really respected the quality of the DELO 400 CI-4Plus I use in my truck - the Moly and other anti-wear components make it the absolute BEST in my book as far as a conventional dino oil is concerned, and especially in a vehicle that sees regular usage. And, of course, oil quality and specifications have changed considerably in the years since this MH was originally built.



That said, I use Amsoil in all my smaller engines that see irregular use and then extended storage - the synthetics excel in long-term stability in storage, as well as in temperature extremes, such as my Honda 2KW generator, and my Nissan 10 HP outboard motor.



A marine, OR motorhome engine operate under unique conditions - especially a MH - they are under constant load because of the wind drag and weight - plus added loads of steep grades in seriously changing altitudes and heat when driven in mountainous terrain as we live in - and then, they may sit for months in the off season or between other uses - exactly the sort of usage that would benefit from a good quality synthetic. The same goes for the Onan 4KW generator in the MH we will be getting.



The MH itself - for those curious - is an '88 Winnebago Chieftan - it's in great cosmetic and mechanical condition, with a relatively low 56K miles on it - it's a pretty neat, well kept and quality unit - and I'd really like to keep it that way!

I had the same exact model and year..... mine was a 22ft. Chieftan with the 454. I put 26K miles on that MH pulling my landscape trailer through the WVA mountains hauling my ATV's to riding spots. I put the Banks headers on to replace the leaky manifolds. I didn't have emmisions tests to deal with so I plugged the smog pump air lines and never had another exhaust leak. 88 was the last model year for carbs so I never achieved better than 10mpg..... but it was very reliable. Consider an after-market ant-sway bar and Bilstein shocks if you are towing your boat around a lot... . makes a big difference. Install a water-temp mechanical gauge along with the other mods and you should expect trouble free service out of it for years



Alan

 

[amsoilman]

Yeah, this has probably been kicked around here before - and appropriate pointers here or elsewhere are welcome - Wayne-Amsoilman, like to see your comments.



It's like this - we just bought a used motorhome with a GM 454 big block gas engine, and as with my Dodge/Cummins, I want the best possible lube for use in this engine that already has nearly 60K miles, but starts and runs great.



I'm very satisfied with the DELO 400 CI-4 Plus I use in the Cummins - but is the diesel lube formulation and slightly high viscosity an issue in a gas engine in MH service? My next choice would be whatever Amsoil product is recommended as best for this sort of heavy duty use in a gas engine with this mileage - my own past experience - regardless of what Amsoil or their reps say, is that the synthetics tend to "find" leakage spots in older engine gaskets that probably were NOT an issue with the dino lubes - so will religiously go over all accessible gaskets to tighten them up a tad to head off that problem, if the synthetic turns out to be the best way to go.



So, lets hear whatever you guys have to say on either the diesel lube in a gasser, OR your on views on performance of lubes like Amsoil in the same service...

Gary,

I have written you an answer to your questions regarding the oil for the Motorhome, as per your request on the TDR messages.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,

I have written you an answer to your questions regarding the oil for the Motorhome, as per your request on the TDR messages.



Wayne

Thanks Wayne, I appreciate the reply.



I'd have no qualms using the DELO CI4-Plus stuff I have, except I'd really prefer to save it for future changes in the truck. The other synthetic advantages I listed here earlier are enough to tip me that way - but I'd probably be smart to put a few miles on the MH to see if any unknown issues surface before committing to the more costly synthetic lubes - thanks again.

 

[TFucili]

Years ago We ran nothing but Conoco 15w40 dyno oil in everything from lawn mowers to Steiger tractors year round and had no problems at all.

+1 When we had a mixed fleet, I was running Drydene Diesel-All 15w40 in everything with good results. The only engine problems were with two 6. 9 Intrashnationals in Fords, but they were not oil-related issues, just junk engine issues:{

 

[WOTURBO]

I work for a gm light and medium duty truck dealership, and the only oil we have in bulk and bottles is mobil delvac 1300 15w40. . The shop puts 15w40 in all the gas or diesel rigs that come in, unless the customer wants something else.

 

[Jumbo Jet]

Shell Rotella-T 15W40 in my Honda VTX 1300S MOTORCYCLE!!

 

[Garlic]

Just food for thought. Many years ago when Allision came out with thier "world' transmission in diesel pusher motor homes, they did alot of research on fluids for it. Initially it had Dexron III in it but they were having some heat and slippage issues. They published a service bulletin to flush and change to Rotella T 15w-40. I personally did several of these coaches, some were new and some had many miles on them, all of the customers replied back for several years as to how it preformed and if there were any issues. None had issues that were changed to MO, I had a few that did not upgrade and they had heat and slippage problems. Delo is a fine MO and I would not hesitate to run it in a gasser.

 

[MLee]

Gary;

Heat shield between the exhaust manifold and the starter, heat is death on this part. Manifolds tend to crack, not enough air circulation on them, thats way headers are always recommended, If it doesn't have them already. Enjoy your new toy.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

WOW!



Lotsa good info rolling in - great, and thanks!



For the synthetic lube users/sellers out there - especially the Amsoil types - I'm curious as to the "CI-4plus" lube Amsoil sells.



At least in the DELO 400 CI-4plus, the largest apparent change in their formulation from the plain CI-4, was the inclusion of significant percentages of Molybdenum and Boron - what equivelant difference does Amsoil add to their CI-4plus that gives it that "plus" as compared to their previous plain CI-4?

Just food for thought. Many years ago when Allision came out with thier "world' transmission in diesel pusher motor homes, they did alot of research on fluids for it. Initially it had Dexron III in it but they were having some heat and slippage issues. They published a service bulletin to flush and change to Rotella T 15w-40. I personally did several of these coaches, some were new and some had many miles on them, all of the customers replied back for several years as to how it preformed and if there were any issues. None had issues that were changed to MO

Now that IS something different - sure would be nervous about trying that in a GM TH400... By the way, seems the 454 engines used in MH service are the truck version - larger oil pan capacity - wonder what other internal differences there might have been in the MH 454's back in '88 to beef them up - same with the TH400 - are the MH versions any heavier or different than the passenger car types?

 

[Garlic]

I would not recommend using the MO in any other transmission!! The Allison was a special unit. The Truck TH400 has more clutches, different hubs and should have an 'anti ballooning' converter, A TH 400 will swell the converter so much under heavy load it will wear out the thrust bearing in the engine and you will wind up with a rear main seal leak. Fuel pressure in BB Chevys in coaches are problem, if it were to drop and lean out while under load you could detonate the engine (Ping/spark knock) this will burn a hole in a piston or crack a compression ring. I do not believe there are any other differences in the engines, the usual head design changes. Spark plug wires and heat shields are a must.

 

[amsoilman]

WOW!



Lotsa good info rolling in - great, and thanks!



For the synthetic lube users/sellers out there - especially the Amsoil types - I'm curious as to the "CI-4plus" lube Amsoil sells.



At least in the DELO 400 CI-4plus, the largest apparent change in their formulation from the plain CI-4, was the inclusion of significant percentages of Molybdenum and Boron - what equivelant difference does Amsoil add to their CI-4plus that gives it that "plus" as compared to their previous plain CI-4? :confused





Now that IS something different - sure would be nervous about trying that in a GM TH400... By the way, seems the 454 engines used in MH service are the truck version - larger oil pan capacity - wonder what other internal differences there might have been in the MH 454's back in '88 to beef them up - same with the TH400 - are the MH versions any heavier or different than the passenger car types?

Gary,

I can not tell you "Specificly" what the diference is between the CI-4 and the CI+4, due to the propriitory formulations of the oils, however, I can tell you the API CI+4 requirement was typiclly required in high speed 4 stroke Diesel engines used in Heavy duty on and off highway applications, and were especialy effective in engines designed to meet the 2002 exhaust emission standards.

As you may know, when the API began setting engine oil standards around the time of World War I, they developed a classification system to identify oils formulated to meet the operationg requirements of various engines. The system has two general catagories:S-series and C-series. The "C"-series is off course what we as diesel owners are concerned with. The original "C" series started as a CA, then went forward to CB, CC,CD,CD-II, CE, CF,CF-2, CF, CH-4, CI-4, CI-4 PLUS, and of course now the latest being a CJ-4 for the current 2007 and later engines.



All of the above are now obsolete except the CF,CF-2, CH-4, CI-4, CI-4 PLUS and CJ-4 oils. As you may also know the CF oils were for INDIRECT-INJECTED Diesel engines, and the CF-2 are for 2-STROKE diesel engines. The -4 oils are of course for a 4-STROKE Diesel engine.



I too would be very hesitant to use a multi-grade oil, such as a 15W-40 in an automatic transmission of any kind, as ATF is a straight grade, which has a Viscosity of a 20 oil. Multi-grade oils have Viscosity Index Improvers in them, where a straight grade does not.



Hope I haven't bored you with this info, but some may not know or understand it.



Wayne

 

[AH64ID]

My dad runs Amsoil HDD 5w-30 Diesel oil in all of his rigs. When he sold his 92 with a SBC it had 190K; his 97 454 Burb has 199K. . no oil issues or leaks.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne sez:

Gary,

I can not tell you "Specificly" what the diference is between the CI-4 and the CI+4, due to the propriitory formulations of the oils, however, I can tell you the API CI+4 requirement was typiclly required in high speed 4 stroke Diesel engines used in Heavy duty on and off highway applications, and were especialy effective in engines designed to meet the 2002 exhaust emission standards.

Wayne, what specifically arouses my curiosity, is that the DELO 400 CI-4+ was introduced with spotlights and fanfare as being significantly superior to Chevron's previous plain CI-4 *because of* the newly added Molybdenum and Boron - and possible other formula modifications - but the Moly and Boron are what really popped up after their upgrade to the "Plus" rating.



That oil was only on the market for a short period of time, until it was superseded by the CJ series - due to mandated exhaust DPF and other EPA related conditions that essentially FORCED removal of the Moly, and I believe, also the Boron and Zinc. I haven't seen latest analysis readings with the current DELO 400 CJ stuff for a more precise comparison.



SO, since I pretty well KNOW what DELO CI-4 changes were made to upgrade to the "Plus" level, and at least a few other refiners made the SAME changes for their "Plus" rating - only to remove it for the later CJ stuff just as DELO had to - it leaves me wondering what Amsoil did to theirs at the same time! Guess in the name of "proprietary info", we'll never know for sure - tho' I have a post over on BITOG asking the same question, so we'll see what comes from over there. :-laf



ANYWAY, I find it both confusing, and hard to believe that the latest CJ series oils can claim on the bottles to both fully comply with, and be interchangeable with, the CI-4+ lubes in ALL aspects, when in at least some cases the individual formulations of those 2 oils are so widely different...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I just finished wandering around a bit over on BITOG - finally found a used oil analysis on some DELO 400 CJ lube - looks like a decent token amount of Moly remains, along with Boron and Zinc - assuming that wasn't primarily from the 1 quart of CI-4+ makeup oil that was added during the run:

All in all, I'm quite pleased with the new CJ4... so I guess I truly believe now that it is as good as the oil companies claim. It was tough to gauge over the last few years with all the skepticism though. 1 Quart added... it was CI4+ (oops).

AFE stage 2 Proguard 7

Only a little Power Service Grey here and there

Truck always driven hard... 50/50 city highway



Here goes...



Aluminum 6

Chromium 0

Iron 19

Copper 2

Lead 3

Tin 0

Moly 120

Nickel 0

Manganese 1

Silver 0

Titanium 0

Potassium 9

Boron 327

Silicon 5

Sodium 4

Calcium 1927

Magnesium 312

Phosphorus 1070

Zinc 1379

Barium 0



CST Viscosity @100C 14. 28

Flashpoint 445 (nice for CJ4 dino)

Fuel <0. 5

Antifreeze 0

Water 0

Insolubles 0. 3%

Looks like that will be a good choice for the first oil change in the MH - then I can sort out where to go after that...