Dirty oil anyone?

[amsoilman]

So does Amsoil have hard data to support running extended oil drain intervals on EGR and low emissions diesels? Can they explain how the bypass filter can remove the submicron soot in the oil when the the oil is designed to keep the soot in suspension and prevent it from agglomerating into particles large enough to be filtered out?

Here is what Amsoil has to say about their By-Pass elements.



http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eabp.aspx





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[amsoilman]

As the developer of the world’s first API qualified synthetic motor oil over 33 years ago, AMSOIL has gained more experience than any other oil company in formulating synthetic motor oil. AMSOIL draws from this experience to formulate its products using a full range of synthetic base oil and additive technology.

Most AMSOIL products are optimized using a combination of premium synthetic base oils, including polyalphaolefins (PAO) and highly specialized, proprietary esters.



The industry’s best severely hydroprocessed (Group III) synthetic base oils are also used, as is the case with the AMSOIL XL motor oils, and the (PCO) 15W-40 Diesel oil. AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives. Each has its own set of unique properties, and AMSOIL combines them differently to maximize performance in any given application (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperature, etc).

 

[brods]

Thanks for the link Wayne. I’m still trying to digest and research it. Like what this really means

These filters remove 39 percent of soot contaminants less than one micron. Soot removal efficiency increases approximately 10 to 14 percent when the EaBP Filter is used in conjunction with a standard full-flow filter.

Sounds good, but is it really? Is it just a numbers game? If soot is in the 0. 03 micron range as the fleetguard paper says, why the 1 micron number? How can they say 39% of all the soot LESS THAN 1 micron? That does not make sense, typically filtration literature will state particulate removal rates for particles of a certain size and larger, not smaller. What test method was used to generate these figures? Is it safe to assume a standard full flow filter will take out 10 to 14 percent of the soot all by itself? How many passes through the filters to achieve these numbers?



Not trying to be an ***** just trying to cut through the marketing crap and get to the facts.



BTW did Amsoil really design this bypass filter or is it just another re-badged Donaldson product?

 

[steved]

I'm not that impressed with the newer eAbp-series filter... the BE-series kept the oil visibly cleaner.



steved

 

[amsoilman]

Thanks for the link Wayne. I’m still trying to digest and research it. Like what this really means Sounds good, but is it really? Is it just a numbers game? If soot is in the 0. 03 micron range as the fleetguard paper says, why the 1 micron number? How can they say 39% of all the soot LESS THAN 1 micron? That does not make sense, typically filtration literature will state particulate removal rates for particles of a certain size and larger, not smaller. What test method was used to generate these figures? Is it safe to assume a standard full flow filter will take out 10 to 14 percent of the soot all by itself? How many passes through the filters to achieve these numbers?



Not trying to be an ***** just trying to cut through the marketing crap and get to the facts.



BTW did Amsoil really design this bypass filter or is it just another re-badged Donaldson product?

Soot particles are very small as you say and also as Fleetgaurd says. However, as the soot particles "agglomerate", (attach to each other) the soot particles then become larger in size. That is where the micron figures come into play.

Amsoil had Southwest Research Institute do the testing of these filters, and they used the ISO (International Standards Organization) standard ISO-4548-12 test method for the testing. The filters came out as 98. 7% efficient@2 MICRON, which is considered "absolute".



Amsoil did design the by-pass elements, which do include synthetic nano-fiber media, which Donaldson developed.



Hopes this helps,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[brods]

Thanks again for the info. Still somewhat confused though.

The filters came out as 98. 7% efficient@2 MICRON, which is considered "absolute".

Ok, but how does this relate to the claim: These filters remove 39 percent of soot contaminants less than one micron.



Short of paying $100 for the test procedure from ANSI or ISO, I can only find limited information on the ISO-4548-12 test. Is it a multiple pass test and does it target soot or was the Amsoil soot claim validated with a different testing procedure?



And we are back to the apparent contradiction! The oil’s job is to keep the soot from agglomerating. To quote from Amsoil’s own literature

AMSOIL Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel & Marine Motor Oil is heavily fortified with detergent/dispersant additives and is naturally resistant to soot. It keeps soot particles suspended independently, preventing them from attaching together to form larger, wear-causing particles. Viscosity increase is minimized and soot related wear is controlled.

If the soot does clump up into particles large enough for the filter to catch, then does that mean the oil is saturated with soot and the dispersant can no longer keep it from agglomerating? If the oil is saturated, wouldn’t that the best time to change the oil?

 

[steved]

They are 98. 7% effective @ 2 micron... 39% effective @ 1 micron...



All fiters have multiple ratings... this shows the effectiveness of the filter media... there were nominal/absolute ratings at one point... now there are beta ratios that show the filter's effectiveness at different particle sizes...



I actually had the same question... does the oil reach a saturated soot level before the soot starts to agglomerate?????





steved

 

[amsoilman]

They are 98. 7% effective @ 2 micron... 39% effective @ 1 micron...



All fiters have multiple ratings... this shows the effectiveness of the filter media... there were nominal/absolute ratings at one point... now there are beta ratios that show the filter's effectiveness at different particle sizes...



I actually had the same question... does the oil reach a saturated soot level before the soot starts to agglomerate?????





steved

The relationship between beta ratio and efficiency is:



Filter efficiency = (1 - 1 / ßx) x 100%



Therefore if ß = 2, filter efficiency = 50%.



A more typical example would be:



ß4 = 1,000,000 / 5,000 = 200; Filter efficiency would be = (1 - 1 / 200) x 100% = 99. 5%



In this case, one million upstream particles 4 microns and larger passing through a beta 200 filter would have a downstream count of 5,000 particles 4 microns and larger for a 99. 5% filtration efficiency.



Better quality filters are typically described in terms of a beta ratio(s) at specific particle size(s). The micron size may also be described in terms of an absolute rating, which represents the diameter of the largest hard spherical particle that will pass through the filter under controlled test conditions. It is also indicative of the largest opening in the filter element.



Lower quality filters may be described in terms of a nominal rating. This is a somewhat arbitrary micron value that the manufacturer assigns. Sometimes filters will be specified only by micron size with no indication of the size being absolute or nominal. In general, if a filter has a micron size and beta ratio or efficiency it can be considered an absolute filter. If it only has a micron size with no beta ratio or efficiency, it should be assumed to be a nominal rating. Unless expressly specified, many equipment manufacturers that supply lubricating systems utilize nominally rated filters due to their lower cost.



The Amsoil By-Pass filter elements have been tested by Southwest Reasearch Institute, using the ISO 4548-12 standard, and the results were 98. 7% EFFICIENT@2 MICRON. (dust used in testing is 2 micron) so essentialy the test is saying the filter will remove 98. 7% particles of 2 Micron in size.



This is considered "Absolute". The ISO test was a multi-pass test. Some filter manufacturers use the Nominal rating as stated above, which is "One-Pass" through the filter.



As to the question: does the oil reach a saturated soot level before the soot starts to agglomerate?????

Many things have to be considered here, as soot particles are not the same size or shape. Effected also by fuel injector efficiency, injector timeing, integrity of the ring-piston seal, oil consumption and the load on the engine.



The results are reported in weight percent (%). They use a (LEM) Light Extinction Measurement process to determine fuel soot.



7-8 % Weight would be considered high, and will allow the oil to gel and form sludge. It would also increase the Viscosity of the oil. MY last analysis reported 0. 02 %WT soot, and the Viscosity was 14. 05 cSt@100 C. with 45,300 miles on the oil! I am not worried at all about the soot in my oil!





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[brods]

Nominal means nothing, or better put, means whatever the filter marketing people want it to mean. Nominal is an absolute-ly useless term. Though this really has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

... ... 39% effective @ 1 micron...

steved

Steved, that is not what they claimed... they said

These filters remove 39 percent of soot contaminants less than one micron.

Quite a different claim than efficiency at 1 micron and above.



Wayne, you have gracefully ducked the questions. Yes some engines will get the oil more sooty than others, but what does that have to do with the questions at hand? And why do we keep talking about the 2 micron rating, since it is agreed the soot is typically much smaller than that? Promote your products all you want, but in return it would be nice to get some straight answers instead of marketing hype. So back to the questions at hand:



1. What does the claim “These filters remove 39% of soot LESS THAN 1 micron” really mean?





2. If the soot does clump up into particles large enough for the filter to catch, then does that mean the oil is saturated with soot and the dispersant can no longer keep it from agglomerating?



Wayne, thanks for answering the questions so far, but if you can't or do not want to directly answer the questions, please just say so. Do not string us along with the typical marketing non-answers. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I have deal with salesmen who frequently try to fudge their way through technical issues, so I tend to have a low BS tolerance. Thank you.

 

[amsoilman]

Nominal means nothing, or better put, means whatever the filter marketing people want it to mean. Nominal is an absolute-ly useless term. Though this really has nothing to do with the subject at hand.



Steved, that is not what they claimed... they said Quite a different claim than efficiency at 1 micron and above.



Wayne, you have gracefully ducked the questions. Yes some engines will get the oil more sooty than others, but what does that have to do with the questions at hand? And why do we keep talking about the 2 micron rating, since it is agreed the soot is typically much smaller than that? Promote your products all you want, but in return it would be nice to get some straight answers instead of marketing hype. So back to the questions at hand:



1. What does the claim “These filters remove 39% of soot LESS THAN 1 micron” really mean?





2. If the soot does clump up into particles large enough for the filter to catch, then does that mean the oil is saturated with soot and the dispersant can no longer keep it from agglomerating?



Wayne, thanks for answering the questions so far, but if you can't or do not want to directly answer the questions, please just say so. Do not string us along with the typical marketing non-answers. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I have deal with salesmen who frequently try to fudge their way through technical issues, so I tend to have a low BS tolerance. Thank you.

As stated above: The Amsoil By-Pass filter elements have been tested by Southwest Reasearch Institute, using the ISO 4548-12 standard, and the results were 98. 7% EFFICIENT@2 MICRON. (dust used in testing is 2 micron) so essentialy the test is saying the filter will remove 98. 7% particles of 2 Micron in size. As to the claim, “These filters remove 39% of soot LESS THAN 1 micron” really mean? It simply states the filter will remove that percentage of soot particles less than 1 micron! Remember this. A screen door will remove some particles 1 micron in size, but would not be very efficient doing it!

Your number 2 question: If the soot does clump up into particles large enough for the filter to catch, then does that mean the oil is saturated with soot and the dispersant can no longer keep it from agglomerating?



It does not necessarily mean the dispersant can no longer keep the soot from agglomerating, but remember many thngs are tied to soot particles becoming bigger in size and shape.



This is the bottom line. If you are using an engine oil that meets/exceeds the API CI-4 PLUS requirements, you are using an oil formulated to help reduce "SOOT" in the oil. A good oil filtration system will only help that even further, as you can see by the results of my last analysis.





Sorry you think I am "FUDGING"



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[brods]

It simply states the filter will remove that percentage of soot particles less than 1 micron! Remember this. A screen door will remove some particles 1 micron in size, but would not be very efficient doing it!

Excellent point. Pass the oil over a window screen enough times and you may be able to claim a 39% reduction in soot for window screen too.



I think the concept of the bypass filter a good one. I also would like to reap the benefits of using synthetic oil. My truck’s oil gets so black so quickly I cannot stand to go more then 5,000 miles before changing it. Imo the bypass filter is a necessity to run extended drain intervals. And, just my opinion again, extended drain intervals are required to justify using expensive synthetic oils (for normal operating conditions).



I work in the industrial filtration industry and know just enough to be dangerous. Years ago I did some crude filtration tests on a major small engine manufacturer’s oil which was used during the engines’ initial run ins. That showed me how difficult it was to remove soot from engine oil.



Bottom line is I do not want to play games with my engine. If I cannot get a satisfactory explanation of how Amsoil’s bypass filter can meet the claims Amsoil makes, as well as a reasonable explanation of how Amsoil synthetic oil can be run for extended intervals without overloading with soot, then I might as well stay with dino and 5,000 mile oil changes.



Wayne, I realize there is no simple answer and I sincerely thank you for the effort. For now I’ll stick with dino and an “absolute” soot removal every 5,000 miles. Maybe even try a bypass filter one day... ...