2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Dlux fab?

[Texis]

ems offroad 4x4 fabrication custom lift axle swap all offroad products lift kit



I ordered the HC-94D-35-IAK Extreme Duty, 35 spline CAD delete. As stated, these are Moser axles. EMS also provided me (2) 35 spline side gears. Add shipping and the cost was something over $600.



To be fair, EMS does offer a 30 spline tappered shaft as well... as you stated. but if your in there already... just add the side gears and get the bigger axles.



I know the Dynatrac stuff is first class. It's just my opionion that their prices are out of line for most Dodge owner's needs. I don't climb rocks or have 800 hp. I'm probably like most guys with these trucks, I just want a solid, conventional front end with locking hubs that won't let me down when I need it.

 

[David411]

Agh such a **** off. I have to rip everything out of the diff anyways to replace my axle seals and would be the perfect opportunity to do the 35 spline inner conversion.
Damn money!

 

[Texis]

David411,



Have you put the hubs on? I will be installing the one piece, CAD delete axles and the hubs this weekend and wondered if you had any pointers for me?



I have already learned a couple of lessions:



>the 35 spline outter axle u-joint install is somewhat like blacksmith work, use a big hammer with anvil. The fit IS tight.

>buy (2) OD snap rings for the axle retainers, inside the hubs... one for each side. The tiny little wrap style retainers are a pain.

>buy a full set (4 each side) of the OD u-joint retaining snap rings. Eric included 2 for each side, for the outter axle u-joints. I picked up 4 more for the inner axle side u-joints (2 for each side). These are MUCH better than the OEM style C-rings. They are thinner and make the entire process MUCH easier, and cannot come off. *** Only applies if your changing the u-joints while you are in there.

 

[David411]

Still in the thick of exams. Probably start this week.
What do you mean by the full circle clips?
I got four of them, do they go in the same place as the c-clips?
Where did you buy them?

 

[Texis]

Yes they replace the C-clips.

You need 4 more if you are changing u-joints. Get them anywhere, I picked mine up at Home Depot! Any auto store, or most hardware stores will have them. The OEM style C-retainers that come with the new u-joints only fill about 60% of the groove in the u-joint cap. The OD snap rings are 100%.



You can use the ones Eric provided and match the size, at less than a buck each it's the best money you will spend! WARNING!!!! hang the snap rings on the cross section of the u-joint BEFORE you assembly the u-joint.

 

[David411]

Okay, Will do.
I got four of them, so I need four more.
This is going to be a long overhaul. .
Hub kit
drive shaft u joints
Hydroboost
thermostat
Grid heater relay
Espar cooling line replacement
new wheel cylinders
...

 

[David411]

David411,



Have you put the hubs on? I will be installing the one piece, CAD delete axles and the hubs this weekend and wondered if you had any pointers for me?



I have already learned a couple of lessions:



>the 35 spline outter axle u-joint install is somewhat like blacksmith work, use a big hammer with anvil. The fit IS tight.

>buy (2) OD snap rings for the axle retainers, inside the hubs... one for each side. The tiny little wrap style retainers are a pain.

>buy a full set (4 each side) of the OD u-joint retaining snap rings. Eric included 2 for each side, for the outter axle u-joints. I picked up 4 more for the inner axle side u-joints (2 for each side). These are MUCH better than the OEM style C-rings. They are thinner and make the entire process MUCH easier, and cannot come off. *** Only applies if your changing the u-joints while you are in there.

I have access to a electric hydraulic press, so hopefully that speeds up the u joint install.

 

[Batphreak]

When I put my axle u-joints in I didn't even touch the press. No replacement for a good hammer, especially if you have a good dead blow ball peen hammer:

T10093 16 oz. Dead Blow Ball Peen Hammer

Once the new joints are in it seems like I always have to give the yokes a few whcks to spread them back out so the joint moves freely, too.

 

[David411]

When I put my axle u-joints in I didn't even touch the press. No replacement for a good hammer, especially if you have a good dead blow ball peen hammer:



T10093 16 oz. Dead Blow Ball Peen Hammer



Once the new joints are in it seems like I always have to give the yokes a few whcks to spread them back out so the joint moves freely, too.

Yah definitely not doing, especially after seeing my buddies hand get split wide open and require several stitches doing the u joints on his 05.

 

[Texis]

Update:

Tore it all down today. Couple of items to note. After tearing down the outters and removing the axles I pulled the ring gear and carrier out of the hosuing to change the spider/side gears to the 35 spline side gears (to match the new axles) I got a nasty surprise, the center pin that holds the spider gears in place is secured by a ROLL PIN... ugly. I have been in many differentials and never seen this. Basically they all have a bolt that secures the center pin. After an hour trying to get it out I came up with this: 1) the roll pin can only be driven out from the ring gear bolt side. 2) I came up with a large nail that fit the hole, cut the tip off and finally drove the pin out.



After that roll pin ordeal, the side gears were easy to change out and I reinstalled the roll pin.



Also, the caged needle bearing near the CAD was tough to get out. Finally drove it back into the differetial housings and all was good. I found a pipe that was "just right" and popped it with the 4lb hammer. The EMS, Moser axles in the CAD delete kit are the max that would fit in these housings. The needle bearing bore has a 1. 630 ID, and the Moser axles have a 1. 600 OD. So there is only a . 030 clearence.



Was surprised to find the lower ball joints in good shape (after 200K)... these were the Duralast from AutoZone (said to be made by Federal Mogul) One of the original OEM uppers was bad, but did survive 320K so I can't hold that agaisn't Mopar.



Assuming I can walk upright tomorrow, I will install the axles and the DLUX hub kits, etc.

 

[David411]

Update:

Tore it all down today. Couple of items to note. After tearing down the outters and removing the axles I pulled the ring gear and carrier out of the hosuing to change the spider/side gears to the 35 spline side gears (to match the new axles) I got a nasty surprise, the center pin that holds the spider gears in place is secured by a ROLL PIN... ugly. I have been in many differentials and never seen this. Basically they all have a bolt that secures the center pin. After an hour trying to get it out I came up with this: 1) the roll pin can only be driven out from the ring gear bolt side. 2) I came up with a large nail that fit the hole, cut the tip off and finally drove the pin out.



After that roll pin ordeal, the side gears were easy to change out and I reinstalled the roll pin.



Also, the caged needle bearing near the CAD was tough to get out. Finally drove it back into the differetial housings and all was good. I found a pipe that was "just right" and popped it with the 4lb hammer. The EMS, Moser axles in the CAD delete kit are the max that would fit in these housings. The needle bearing bore has a 1. 630 ID, and the Moser axles have a 1. 600 OD. So there is only a . 030 clearence.



Was surprised to find the lower ball joints in good shape (after 200K)... these were the Duralast from AutoZone (said to be made by Federal Mogul) One of the original OEM uppers was bad, but did survive 320K so I can't hold that agaisn't Mopar.



Assuming I can walk upright tomorrow, I will install the axles and the DLUX hub kits, etc.

I wish I was this far along.

I am dealing with seized bolts everywhere I turn it seems like.

Drums completely seized bolts completely rusted in.

Just been a major headache. Broke all four bolts off the Disconnect cover, wheel cylinder bolts as well. #@$%!

Definitely wont get to the hub kit this weekend.

 

[Texis]

Finished up today.

Everything went well, the Dlux kit bolts together nicely. Of course a couple of learning curves. This kit actually uses Dana 70, 35 spline outter axles and the yokes are BIG. Once you get the spindles on (BEFORE YOU PUT THE HUBS AND ROTORS ON!!!!) rotate the axles and make sure the yoke ends don't hit stuff! Mine bumped the inner axle yokes at a full lock turn, actually stopped the Knuckle before the factory stops. A 4" grinder with an 80 grit flapper disc is easy to get in there and quickly smoothed the outter axle yoke's edges. Don't worry about removing a bit of material, they are 2X the thickness and size of the OEM yokes and were even much beefer than the 1. 5" moser axle yokes.



If your changing brake pads, check out a couple of different brands, etc. If the outter pad is too thick it can stop you from being able to install the caliper. So look for pad sets with the thinest outter pad, the caliper side pad thickness doesn't matter. Pad thickness will vary a bit between manufactures.



You do not need to remove the linkage from the power steering pump, just at the knuckles. I used a couple of tie wraps to hold it up during the project.



The track width worked out to about 3/8" wider on each side... on my 97 2500. I measured the OEM assembly and then measured the Dlux assembly before I installed it, I think it looks good on my truck.



Once it was finished (2, 8 hour days for the axle swap, hub conversion and ball joints) I found a shell road, stuck it in 4WL, locked the hubs and was spinning all 4 nicely, unlocked the hubs and went home with nothing spinning up front! Not sure what to do with all the CAD wiring etc. Currently tie wrapped out of the way. I suppose I will trace it all out and terminate with prejudice.



BTW, Eric answers the phone day or night and has been really helpful on a couple of issues.



Good luck.

 

[Texis]

Revision!!

The track width is wider than 3/8" per side. I would estimate that the track width increased by 1"-1 1/4" each side.

 

[SRath]

According to Erik when I spoke to him a couple times, his kits do not rely upon custom-made or off-shore parts. He uses Ford hubs, spindles, and rotors. The spindles must obviously be machined, meaning the 5-hole Ford stud pattern replaced with the 4-bolt dodge unit hub pattern. That would mean welding the old holes shut and redrilling the new holes (my guess). Is that what you found, David?



I do not like the 4-bolt mount. It may be OK for the Dodge unit hub, but that unit hub does not exert as much leverage on them due to it's narrow bearing spacing (which is also why unit hubs are so weak). Ford uses 5 studs to support the longer spindle necessary for wider-spaced tapered wheel bearings. Chevy, and 1st gen dodges, use 6 studs to mount the spindle. Dodge gets away with it on these pseudo Dana 60's because the unit hub bolt flange is thicker than a Ford or Chevy spindle flange and is tapped to accept those 4 bolts at 125 ft/lbs torque each. The thinner flange and longer length on a real spindle combined with only 4 through-bolts and nuts does not instill a lot of confidence in me. There's a reason Ford and Chevy chose 5 and 6 stud spindle mounts, and it isn't because they enjoyed paying the extra money for them.



Erik also said you would widen your front wheel track by about 1" per side, or 2" overall. Neither Dynatrac or EMS says a word about whether their kits do the same.



I am working on what i believe is a better way to do the lockout hub conversion. It will take some more time and parts hunting, but having just done my frontend, and some measuring, I am convinced it will work. I will also gain strength over the 4-bolt Dodge mount as well as upgrade to larger, dual-piston calipers in the process.



I will still need some 1-piece, 35-spline inner axle shafts.



Texis: When you installed your new Mosers, did you retain the passenger side outer axle position of the seal? I am kicking myself for just having had my carrier out of my Dana 60 to replace the seals and FAILING to take note of whether the passenger side housing and axle tube are machined for a conventional seal next to the carrier like the driver side is. This would make for a longer seal life and easy installation.



DO NOT FORGET to allow for axle venting if you replace your CAD!!! My '96 is vented at the CAD assembly. Replacing it with a block off plate and/or installing an inner housing seal on the passenger side will render the vent inoperable. I was just going to drill and tap a barbed hose fitting directly into the pumpkin just like my Chevy Dana 60 with a pressed-in vent tube.



Again, Texis, I would appreciate details on the inner axles, seals, and seal positioning that you used.



I will post my own hub conversion details using oem Dana parts once I have them all and have assembled and tested my theory. That will leave me with only a 35-spline inner axle upgrade to buy aftermarket.

 

[David411]

According to Erik when I spoke to him a couple times, his kits do not rely upon custom-made or off-shore parts. He uses Ford hubs, spindles, and rotors. The spindles must obviously be machined, meaning the 5-hole Ford stud pattern replaced with the 4-bolt dodge unit hub pattern. That would mean welding the old holes shut and redrilling the new holes (my guess). Is that what you found, David?



I do not like the 4-bolt mount. It may be OK for the Dodge unit hub, but that unit hub does not exert as much leverage on them due to it's narrow bearing spacing (which is also why unit hubs are so weak). Ford uses 5 studs to support the longer spindle necessary for wider-spaced tapered wheel bearings. Chevy, and 1st gen dodges, use 6 studs to mount the spindle. Dodge gets away with it on these pseudo Dana 60's because the unit hub bolt flange is thicker than a Ford or Chevy spindle flange and is tapped to accept those 4 bolts at 125 ft/lbs torque each. The thinner flange and longer length on a real spindle combined with only 4 through-bolts and nuts does not instill a lot of confidence in me. There's a reason Ford and Chevy chose 5 and 6 stud spindle mounts, and it isn't because they enjoyed paying the extra money for them.



Erik also said you would widen your front wheel track by about 1" per side, or 2" overall. Neither Dynatrac or EMS says a word about whether their kits do the same.



I am working on what i believe is a better way to do the lockout hub conversion. It will take some more time and parts hunting, but having just done my frontend, and some measuring, I am convinced it will work. I will also gain strength over the 4-bolt Dodge mount as well as upgrade to larger, dual-piston calipers in the process.



I will still need some 1-piece, 35-spline inner axle shafts.



Texis: When you installed your new Mosers, did you retain the passenger side outer axle position of the seal? I am kicking myself for just having had my carrier out of my Dana 60 to replace the seals and FAILING to take note of whether the passenger side housing and axle tube are machined for a conventional seal next to the carrier like the driver side is. This would make for a longer seal life and easy installation.



DO NOT FORGET to allow for axle venting if you replace your CAD!!! My '96 is vented at the CAD assembly. Replacing it with a block off plate and/or installing an inner housing seal on the passenger side will render the vent inoperable. I was just going to drill and tap a barbed hose fitting directly into the pumpkin just like my Chevy Dana 60 with a pressed-in vent tube.



Again, Texis, I would appreciate details on the inner axles, seals, and seal positioning that you used.



I will post my own hub conversion details using oem Dana parts once I have them all and have assembled and tested my theory. That will leave me with only a 35-spline inner axle upgrade to buy aftermarket.

Yup that's exactly what I found regarding the spindle machining. I believe EMS also increases track width, not sure about dynatrac. I have yet to install the kit... ran into alot of issues installing my wheel cylinders, perm-lok, grid heater relay etc and ran out of time. Current plan is to start putting on the hubs friday night. I do agree that the 5 or 6 bolt spindle would be stronger, but I do not see any issues with strength on my truck.

Its mostly a highway truck with some offroad activity, maybe 80%/20%. If your a hardcore offroader than maybe a 6 bolt design would be better. If Erik trusts the kit on his own truck than I have no doubts about strength issues. I look forward to your DIY hub kit. I saw one on DTR but it was heavily involved with welding and machining, plus I priced out the parts listed and was already at 700$ plus machining costs. So overall it was much easier and way less headache to just pull the trigger on Erik's kit instead of F%^king around with parts that may or may not fit and need adjustment. I do not have time for that.

 

[Texis]

The EMS / Moser CAD delete axles do not use any of the OEM seals, the axles are too large and would not go through them. The caged needle bearing near the CAD must come out as well, again, ID too small.



The EMS kit supplies some real neat seal inserts than push into the axle tube from the differential side. You have to take the ring carrier out to install the 35 spline side gears anyway. EMS sold me a pair of used 35 spline side gears. With the ring carrier out, the seals, which actually are double seals and about 1" long cartrages and press / tap into the axle tube. Instructions call for silicone on the extrerior of the cartrage. I was not sure about this, but now a believer... they are simple, nice and fool proof.



BTW, the 35 spline outter axles Eric supplies are Dana 70 units and have been cut to match the hubs lenght. I had to clearence the yokes a bit to clear everything in the axle's C knuckles. But as David stated buying the various bits and pieces, and getting it right is worth the $200-300 esh profit that Eric has in the kit. He was very good to deal with as well. One of my spindle nuts did not have a retainer / lock pin and he sent out a replacement the next day.



I studied the vent issue for days. The simplest solution for me was a trip to the auto store for a chrome / steel valve stem assembly. The unit is all steel, installs from the inside and is locked down with a nut, gasket is also included. I installed mine in the upper section of the diff cover, just above the drain plug (it's flat there) removed the needle portion and pushed on a 1/4" hose with hose clamp. Cost was about $5 bucks, diff cover is only 1/8" thick and was on the bench when I drilled it, worked out very well.

No drilling the thick housing in place or tapping.

 

[SRath]

That answers my questions about the new EMS axle shafts very well, Texis. The ones they used to offer were 1. 5" like a real 35 spline Dana 60 shaft, but then tapered down to 1. 25" or Dana 44 size to fit through the stock dodge CAD bearing and seal. Pretty pointless. The Dynatracs were far superior with no taper. Nice to see EMS agreed. They also appear to offer a stock-dodge 30 spline, dana 44-sized, one-piece replacement shaft if you do not want to upgrade to 35 spline beef, but do want to eliminate the CAD and 2-piece passenger shaft.



I thought the housing was the same where both axle tubes entered, but, like I said, am kicking myself for not making it a point to take note of it or not while I had my carrier out to replace the driver's side seal.



Believe me, after having priced the parts new, Erik is not making a large profit at all. Just the 35-spline stub shafts and premium Warn 35 spline lockouts will blow between 4 and 5 hundred dollars. Bearings are another $75, and you still need hubs, spindles, spindle bearings and seals, a nut set, and machine work. I am trying a different approach just for my own self and will need no machine work or modifications done if my theory proves to be true. What I am trying to do is not something I would attempt to "package" and sell, either. Succeed or fail, I will share the details here on TDR once I have all the parts and give it a shot.



I like your vent tube solution. Sounds very effective. If you look, some of the covers MagHytec sells offer venting similar to yours.



Eliminating the outer axle tube seal on the passenger side is a great move. Consider that a slight amount of axle shaft wobble is unavoidable. On a one-piece shaft, it is supported only at the carrier side gear and at the spindle, beyond the u-joint. Nothing in between, and that u-joint flexes. Near the carrier, the amount the shaft moves is very small. As you move farther out the housing tube, that runout or wobble diameter increases dramatically, which is why the stock dodge 2nd gen passenger side seal is so prone to wear and leaking.



The very best seal is the new-style spicer replacement for chevy 35 spline factory shafts. It is a two-piece design with an inner part that spins with the shaft, thus eliminating shaft grooving completely, while the outer piece remains stationary in the housing. I wonder if they might work with these Moser/EMS shafts. . ? The diameter would have to be the same as stock Chevy shafts...



EMS is selling their new shaft "kits" on ebay. But I think $585 plus shipping is too much. More than Dynatrac, even. They don't give any specifics about them either. There is a vast array of stock axle lengths and splines available once a guy figures out his needs.



Keep us posted as to any differences in handling, fuel economy, other issues, etc that you might notice or encounter. Thanks for the info and Merry Christmas!!

 

[David411]

That answers my questions about the new EMS axle shafts very well, Texis. The ones they used to offer were 1. 5" like a real 35 spline Dana 60 shaft, but then tapered down to 1. 25" or Dana 44 size to fit through the stock dodge CAD bearing and seal. Pretty pointless. The Dynatracs were far superior with no taper. Nice to see EMS agreed. They also appear to offer a stock-dodge 30 spline, dana 44-sized, one-piece replacement shaft if you do not want to upgrade to 35 spline beef, but do want to eliminate the CAD and 2-piece passenger shaft.



I thought the housing was the same where both axle tubes entered, but, like I said, am kicking myself for not making it a point to take note of it or not while I had my carrier out to replace the driver's side seal.



Believe me, after having priced the parts new, Erik is not making a large profit at all. Just the 35-spline stub shafts and premium Warn 35 spline lockouts will blow between 4 and 5 hundred dollars. Bearings are another $75, and you still need hubs, spindles, spindle bearings and seals, a nut set, and machine work. I am trying a different approach just for my own self and will need no machine work or modifications done if my theory proves to be true. What I am trying to do is not something I would attempt to "package" and sell, either. Succeed or fail, I will share the details here on TDR once I have all the parts and give it a shot.



I like your vent tube solution. Sounds very effective. If you look, some of the covers MagHytec sells offer venting similar to yours.



Eliminating the outer axle tube seal on the passenger side is a great move. Consider that a slight amount of axle shaft wobble is unavoidable. On a one-piece shaft, it is supported only at the carrier side gear and at the spindle, beyond the u-joint. Nothing in between, and that u-joint flexes. Near the carrier, the amount the shaft moves is very small. As you move farther out the housing tube, that runout or wobble diameter increases dramatically, which is why the stock dodge 2nd gen passenger side seal is so prone to wear and leaking.



The very best seal is the new-style spicer replacement for chevy 35 spline factory shafts. It is a two-piece design with an inner part that spins with the shaft, thus eliminating shaft grooving completely, while the outer piece remains stationary in the housing. I wonder if they might work with these Moser/EMS shafts. . ? The diameter would have to be the same as stock Chevy shafts...



EMS is selling their new shaft "kits" on ebay. But I think $585 plus shipping is too much. More than Dynatrac, even. They don't give any specifics about them either. There is a vast array of stock axle lengths and splines available once a guy figures out his needs.



Keep us posted as to any differences in handling, fuel economy, other issues, etc that you might notice or encounter. Thanks for the info and Merry Christmas!!

Does EMS's axle upgrade kit include ujoints? I know Dynatracs does.

I look forward to reading your experimental hub conversion. Should be an interesting read.

 

[Texis]

The EMS kit did not include the u-joints, I bought mine form Eric. I went with the forged Spicer, non-greaseable. The non-greaseable OEM joints lasted 320K and were in good condition when I pulled them. I figure if those made that many miles spinning non-stop, these should last forever rarely turning. In fact I have owned (9) 4wd vehicles over the last 35 years and never had an axle u-joint failure?



I think different parts of the country are much harder on u-joints than where I am (East Texas, Gulf Coast). All we have is greasy gumbo mud, no sand or dust to screw up u-joints and no winter that requires a bunch of 4wd use. So basically they seem to last forever on my vehicles.



The axle tubes are NOT the same on both sides on the diff. The driver's side has a 3/4" deep recess (larger ID) for the OEM seal, the double seal cartrage unit supplied by EMS presses into the axle tube "just" beyound the OEM seal landing. Both sides use the same seal, which is designed to press into the bare tube. EMS may sell you just the seals? I inspected them carefully, they have no marking on them at all.



More on the DLUX kit. I found a set of brake pads that were . 030 thinner than the premium sets. That was enough to add new pads and the caliper install correctly, so look the outter pads over carefully on the new brake sets.

The one that fits came from O'Reilly: ... ..... "Brake Best" PN MKD459. $21 bucks for the set.



IMHO the 4 bolts holding the DLUX spindles is a non issue. The resistance to movement comes from the male-female spindle to knuckle fit, which is a zero tolerance, 3/8" deep fit. In order for the spindle & hub to fail... the spindle would have to seperate from the knuckle. Impact loads would not do this, only side loads. So basically the OEM 4 bolt and the DLUX 4 bolt are managing the same stresses... side loading only. As long as the bolts keep the spindle bedded into the knuckle it cannot move without either breaking the knuckle or the spindle. In fact 3 properly spaced bolts would do it.

 

[SRath]

Thanks, Texis. If my hub conversion works out, even spending $600 for the whole EMS or Dynatrac inner axle setup won't be so bad.

Here in Iowa, they use some very nasty stuff on our icy roads. It is death to all things metal and even rubber.

For example: I drop and hook a dozen or more trailers every night. My gloves and hands get soaked with road spray that clings to everything. Within a short period of time, my semi tractor's steering wheel gets slimy, then sticky, and my hands turn black as the coating on it dissolves. If you try to clean your windows or mirrors, there is an oily film that will not come off even with ammonia cleaners. The rubber window sweeps soon begin leaving very nasty smears and streaks on the windows when you roll them up and down. The rag comes away black with rubber when you try to clean the sweeps. It gets under powder coating and peels it away in sheets of rust leaving badly pitted metal underneath.

Imagine what that crap does to u-joint seals and ball joint and tie rod rubber boots as well as body panels and frames. I hate it and wish they would outlaw it. It is some kind of liquid brine witches brew. Very hard on vehicles. Which is why I buy my trucks from Texas!