Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) do you have to have a box to help the injectors make HP???

[BigDan]

My Edge comp was acting up today(not working at all) and I noticed my truck felt stock. Like there was hardly any added power from my Mach 5 injectors. The was just little puffs of smoke and no added power comming from my 200HP injectors.



Well it turns out my power wire tap was loose using that lame add-a-fuse thing they supply. Temporarly fixed that and now all seems good.



Was that normal behavior stock with Mach 5's not a noticable increase in HP, Smoke, EGT's????



Thanks

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

I have noticed the same thing with my new 220hp injectors. I can't get over 1032 degrees pre turbo without the wire tapped. I have 2 seperate pyros and they both read the same within a few degrees.





Dan

 

[Sled Puller]

220HP Injectors?



How is that rated? Did the fine print say start with a 160 HP truck and add parts X,X,X and then the injectors?

Surely it doesn't mean additional HP, it must mean like a "275 RV injector" So you put in smaller than stock injectors, at 220.

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

6. How do you rate your injector power levels?

F1 Diesel used a chassis dyno (DynoJet 248C) to measure all HP gains at the rear wheels. These gains were made at sea level using uncorrected numbers. All HP gains were made with a single turbocharger up to the Mach 4 size and twin turbos for the Mach 5 and Mach 6.





This is from the www.f1diesel.com website. The way I read it, it says "rear wheel gains", it doesn't say in conjuction with a fueling box or anything else.



I've seen some pretty big numbers posted on here with these injectors. Hopefully someone can chime in here that can tell me what may be wrong with my truck.



TIA,

Dan

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

The edge comp is working as a boost fooler to intercept the map signal and lies to the ecm as to how much boost it's making so that it doesn't defuel. What it would do if there's no power to the edge box I don't know but I imagine it's possible that it would be sending a signal to the ECM that it's making no boost at all which would then prevent the ECM from adding fuel because of lack of boost since the fueling curves are based on a throttle position plus how much boost is being produced. Did you get a check engine light?

 

[jaybigboy34]

I unplugged my power puck just to see how my truck would run with my Mach 3. 7's and it seemed sick. The power puck is kind of comparable to an EZ. You don't have a wire tap. I think a box advances the timing which makes the truck run right. Maybe more knowledgable people than me will chime in and help out.

 

[Hohn]

Steve is right.

If the Comp isn't functioning properly, it's VERY likely that the ECM is seeing NO boost signal at all.

Disconnect your MAP sensor and see if it behaves the same. I'll bet you find this is the case.

The ECM is setup to allow very little fueling without boost. Monster injectors will have more fueling than stock ones (because the ECM can't account for that), but it will still feel anemic without a MAP signal.

The EZ and almost all boxes will allow more off-boost fueling, which is a big part of their "response". It's also where the smoke comes from.

You can also check to see if your Comp is bas by removing it and just running the huge injectors. Reconnect the stock MAP sensor. THen drive it.

If you run huge injectors and no boost fooler (and are willing to ignore an overboost code), you will see how much fueling increase you get from the injectors.

The ECM is programmed to defuel when it sees excess boost (over 21psi on my ETH). It will defuel to an amount that it THINKS will give you 21psi. But this is with stock injectors. With larger injectors, the ECM is delivering more fuel than it thinks, so you should see more boost, even when it's in max defuel mode from overboost.

The popular conception is that the ECM is smart enough to defuel until boost comes down to 21psi, but I don't think the defuel amount is read off boost. The ECM can't adjust, from what I have seen. It only knows that there's excess boost, then it "runs to momma" by entering a defuel mode. This defueling mode fixes fueling at a certain rate, which can be manipulated by injector size.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Justin

 

[SRossi]

Dang, who runs 200 hp injectors on a stock turbo? Someone's asking for trouble

 

[BigDan]

I do I do :-laf

 

[Idaho CTD]

Since I helped dyno those numbers DonM used to rate his injectors I would say something else is wrong such as Hohn suggests. With Mach 6's and twins my truck makes over 400hp (around 440 actually) and smokes pretty dang good. Without a properly functioning box or map sensor the truck will feel like it's sick (been there done that). I had problems with my map sensor on my '01. 5 and when I'd try to pass someone the truck would fall on it's face. Sometimes it came to it's senses and sometimes not. Once you verify your box has all the connections made properly and it still does it I would see if you could try someone elses box. If that doesn't work buy a new map sensor.

 

[BigDan]

So you guys are telling me even though my truck still is fast with the comp on, that there is a problem because its hella slow when the comp is dissconected?????

 

[JR2]

If the comp is not connected at all (removed from truck) then it can not act as a boost fooler. What happens is your truck will see more than 21 psi boost and go into limp mode. Limp mode makes your truck a dog to protect the engine.



If you want to run without the comp installed, take the boost elbow off and hook the map sensor back up. You will probably have to keep a good eye on the EGT's. but it should run better.



So yes, we are telling you that with out the comp installed and acting as a boost fooler your truck will be a dog.

 

[Chrisw]

Dang, who runs 200 hp injectors on a stock turbo? Someone's asking for trouble

I hate to say I did,



but would like to add that I no longer do

 

[BigDan]

I hate to say I did,



but would like to add that I no longer do

Yeah until we collect our pennies for a B series turbo. Mach 5's look a lot better in the truck then on a work bench waiting for a turbo. AMEN

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

In my case, I never unhooked anything. I had hot mach 3's(140hp) and my twins. I just replaced my VP44 this spring and have not hooked the pump wire back up, because I wanted the benefit of the warranty. With the hot mach 3's, I was getting low 50's for boost and 1050 degrees or so preturbo. I wanted to buy a set of injectors that would use up my available air without the need for a fueling box. So another TDR member and I swapped in the 6's and were very surprised to see very little to no increase in boost, egt, or SOP power. I do not understand how this is possible when increasing injector size from 140hp to 220hp. I know everybody says efficiency, but more fuel equals more egts, right? My egt's didn't change but maybe 20 degrees. I was under the impression that these were on the ragged edge of being tow friendly. I can't get my egt past 1050, so what could be the problem. I swapped MAP sensors and no change. I am not feeling my truck defuel either. I have ridden in a single charger truck that had some rather large pulling injectors and his truck crushes my truck hands down with his fueling box off compared to my twins, 6's and ez(comp) box. On injectors alone, he had no problem sending the pyro past 1400.



What kind of egt should I expect with the injectors alone and then with an ez? I can feel the box working fine and see a rather large increase in smoke off boost when I have it on. I do not understand why these fail to perform any better than the Mach 3's I just took out? The truck runs great, just doesn't have the fueling needed to even warrant the need for twin turbos, at least in my case from what I am seeing.



TIA for any suggestions,

Dan

 

[Idaho CTD]

Dan,



The larger Mach series injectors are optimized basically for the Edge Drag Comp box. Don can make injectors optimized for the EZ or other smaller boxes but most people who want that large of an injector want all the hp they can get. He can also make huge hp on injectors only (with a boost fooler of course) but the smoke gets to be a factor with injectors that aren't developed for the larger fueling boxes.



Nathan

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

Thanks Nathan. I appreciate the information.



Dan

 

[andrewkoperdak]

Okay here goes my 2 cents.

I had Stage III injectors (100 HP) on my truck with boost fooler. Those alone made for a wicked ride but... I could not leave enough alone. I bought a SuperChips unit and set it for PERFORMANCE mode ( 70 HP additional and another 140 lb ft torque). That was unbelievable. Kinda reminded me of Elton John's song "Rocketman".

With injectors alone my truck dyno'd at 324 hp and 619 lb ft with 30 psi boost set as the back off the gas limit. I haven't had the time to see what the Super C would at to those dyno numbers. But getting to you question, I don't see why it would act like a dog. I did see some good possibilities in the other postings though.

Someone metioned limp mode at 21 psi, that is incorrect. Your truck defuels at

~ 21 psi which is not a shift to limp.

 

[R-N-R]

My observation

I'm not sure where or if this observation fits in this thread, but just in case.



When I needed to send in my comp box I simply unhooked it. I drove about 7 blocks through a residential are (slow) and immediately noticed a significant lack of power even at low speed. I unhooked the wire harness and my injector only power was back to where I expected. The problem seemed to be something to do with unhooking the box while the comp wire harness (with pump wire tapped) was still connected. This is not the case if I simply turn the box power off while it is still connected.

 

[KLockliear]

A box will usually enhance a set of injectors, but shouldn't be required. My 01 ETH makes 419rwhp with the UFM turned off, Jammer 5's and a Jammer turbo.