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Do you use a fuel additive ('03s only)
- Thread starter rbattelle
- Start Date
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"The proof is in the pudding, those not using a fuel additive are losing lift pumps, and worse, main pumps, while those of us using a fuel additive, are not. "
Not sure where you did your research but I never use additives. 89k on my '98 Cummins and 220,000+ on my Isuzu P'up diesel with Bosch rotary injection pump. Not the first hint of lift pump or injection pump trouble out of either. They ran like champs when I traded them. Ex had 256,000 on her VW Rabbit diesel with narry a drop of additive ever added. It also ran like a champ when we sold it to buy a new car.
Not sure where you did your research but I never use additives. 89k on my '98 Cummins and 220,000+ on my Isuzu P'up diesel with Bosch rotary injection pump. Not the first hint of lift pump or injection pump trouble out of either. They ran like champs when I traded them. Ex had 256,000 on her VW Rabbit diesel with narry a drop of additive ever added. It also ran like a champ when we sold it to buy a new car.
Lucky guy!
I haven't used additives since 1986 when I got my first diesel pickup (Ford) and I have never had any fuel related problems.
Dean
Dean
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Wow! I think I started an additive war! Here's another one of those cases where for every person who tells you "you're a fool if you don't use an additive", there's another who will say "I've gone 10 million miles without additive and no trouble". Oh well. I don't bother with an additive, and won't for the forseeable future.
However, I do agree that the drop in sulfur content that is coming might require those of use with diesels built during the high-sulfur days to use a lubricity-enhancing additive.
However, I do agree that the drop in sulfur content that is coming might require those of use with diesels built during the high-sulfur days to use a lubricity-enhancing additive.
We use Rotella DFA because of the claim of keeping the injectors clean. I wonder if no problems fuel related is because some of you trade vehicles every 2 or 3 years and the issue never arrises, or if the injectors never clog or nead cleaning. If they don't I think I may stop using it.
pit bull, thats also a good price. Depends if you really believe in demulsifiers and your water separators or not. . Either way, your argument I believe is that additives provide cheap insurance/benefit and I wholeheartedly agree.
Vaughn MacKenzie
TDR MEMBER
I have witnessed many injector changeouts on 2nd Gen Rams and have seen firsthand how consistently and significantly cleaner the injector tips are on those running additives, and how cruddy with deposits they are without.
When I took my DD2s out of my '01 after running them 60,000 miles they were very clean. And that was despite running 10 gallons of used motor oil through during that time and buying fuel at several different locations (not always the best stuff).
Vaughn
When I took my DD2s out of my '01 after running them 60,000 miles they were very clean. And that was despite running 10 gallons of used motor oil through during that time and buying fuel at several different locations (not always the best stuff).
Vaughn
Vaughn MacKenzie
TDR MEMBER
I have witnessed many injector changeouts on 2nd Gen Rams and have seen firsthand how consistently and significantly cleaner the injector tips are on those running additives, and how cruddy with deposits they are without.
When I took my DD2s out of my '01 after running them 60,000 miles they were very clean. And that was despite running 10 gallons of used motor oil through during that time and buying fuel at several different locations (not always the best stuff).
Vaughn
When I took my DD2s out of my '01 after running them 60,000 miles they were very clean. And that was despite running 10 gallons of used motor oil through during that time and buying fuel at several different locations (not always the best stuff).
Vaughn
With all this talk about water in the fuel I had to look at my bottle of Power Service. I didn't see anything on how it works to keep water out so I called the tech line and this is what he had to say. I asked if he could send it to me Email so I could post it and he did. It would take a very big bottle to put all of this on it. I used PS in my 99 all the time and I will continue to use it in my 03.
Hello Don,
Below is an email I sent to another customer that was asking the same questions you were. I hope this information helps. Also I would like to point out that Power Service Products, Inc. is the largest manufacturer of diesel fuel additives in the USA. More fleets use our products than any other product on the market.
International Truck and Engine Corporation manufactures the diesel engines in light-duty Ford Trucks and well as for their line of International diesel trucks. Power Service Products, Inc. is the only diesel fuel additive company to have a direct corporate-wide program with International. Not only does International Truck sell our products in their dealerships, all Ford Dealerships across the United States have access to Power Service Products through Blue Diamond Parts, LLC, which is a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and International Corporation. Also, Freightliner, Peterbilt and Mack also sell our products in their dealerships and they also buy from Power Service Products, Inc. No other additive company in America has such a presence in the marketplace.
It is OK with me if you wish to post this information. A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a fuel solubilizer are all water dispersants. The emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.
GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up into the fuel suspending the water as droplets in the fuel. Alcohols can adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers.
Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.
Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water.
There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water.
If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent any fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water. The best way to rid the system of water is to pump it off the bottom, however most fuel systems are not made to easily access the system and pump off the water. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem and it does not have to be used with every fill-up.
When we manufacture our products we take the requirements of the Original Engine Manufactures and the ASTM D975 Standard (the standard to which diesel fuel is manufactured) and the National Council of Weights and Measures (NCWM) into consideration. We want to be sure that our products meet their needs, which is in your best interest.
Be assured that if it runs on diesel fuel it will run better on Power Service Products. If you have any other questions or concerns please give me a call at (800)643 9089 or email me at -- email address removed --.
Best regards,
Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.
Hello Don,
Below is an email I sent to another customer that was asking the same questions you were. I hope this information helps. Also I would like to point out that Power Service Products, Inc. is the largest manufacturer of diesel fuel additives in the USA. More fleets use our products than any other product on the market.
International Truck and Engine Corporation manufactures the diesel engines in light-duty Ford Trucks and well as for their line of International diesel trucks. Power Service Products, Inc. is the only diesel fuel additive company to have a direct corporate-wide program with International. Not only does International Truck sell our products in their dealerships, all Ford Dealerships across the United States have access to Power Service Products through Blue Diamond Parts, LLC, which is a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and International Corporation. Also, Freightliner, Peterbilt and Mack also sell our products in their dealerships and they also buy from Power Service Products, Inc. No other additive company in America has such a presence in the marketplace.
It is OK with me if you wish to post this information. A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a fuel solubilizer are all water dispersants. The emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.
GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up into the fuel suspending the water as droplets in the fuel. Alcohols can adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers.
Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.
Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water.
There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water.
If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent any fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water. The best way to rid the system of water is to pump it off the bottom, however most fuel systems are not made to easily access the system and pump off the water. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem and it does not have to be used with every fill-up.
When we manufacture our products we take the requirements of the Original Engine Manufactures and the ASTM D975 Standard (the standard to which diesel fuel is manufactured) and the National Council of Weights and Measures (NCWM) into consideration. We want to be sure that our products meet their needs, which is in your best interest.
Be assured that if it runs on diesel fuel it will run better on Power Service Products. If you have any other questions or concerns please give me a call at (800)643 9089 or email me at -- email address removed --.
Best regards,
Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.
Last edited by a moderator:
I've seen that post copied and pasted many times. Primrose has a patented emulsifier, and contains no alcohol.
While powerservice has some interesting points, they are off on a few. Most diesel fuel contains between 60-90ppm of water. Theoretically, using something like stanadyne, that disperses water by demulsfying, would leave a pool of water in the tank, how they describe. Unfortunately, this is not realistic in a motor vehicle. It is somewhat realistic in a stationary tank however. The reason that demulsifying is unrealistic is because as soon as the fuel is disturbed by vibration or motion, all that demulsified water goes back into suspension/emulsion, and thus passes through your fuel system. What's not caught by fuel filters (which hardly any is) then is clumped together and passes through your system. Using an emulsifying additive like primrose makes water stay in emulsion, however in very tiny droplets that are ENCAPSULATED with a lubricant that allow the water to safely pass through your system.
If anyone takes the time to read powerservice's MSDS, you would realize that powerservice is 77% regular old #2 diesel fuel. It's no wonder you have to use so much to treat the fuel.
Powerservice is junk, no matter how they choose to make you believe it's good stuff, its all marketing nonsense.
Diesel kleen doesn't contain water dispersants, but DFS has demulsifiers. Since we know that the factory water separators are relatively ineffective, stick with something that emulsifies - like FPPF or primrose 405(summer) or 409(winter).
While powerservice has some interesting points, they are off on a few. Most diesel fuel contains between 60-90ppm of water. Theoretically, using something like stanadyne, that disperses water by demulsfying, would leave a pool of water in the tank, how they describe. Unfortunately, this is not realistic in a motor vehicle. It is somewhat realistic in a stationary tank however. The reason that demulsifying is unrealistic is because as soon as the fuel is disturbed by vibration or motion, all that demulsified water goes back into suspension/emulsion, and thus passes through your fuel system. What's not caught by fuel filters (which hardly any is) then is clumped together and passes through your system. Using an emulsifying additive like primrose makes water stay in emulsion, however in very tiny droplets that are ENCAPSULATED with a lubricant that allow the water to safely pass through your system.
If anyone takes the time to read powerservice's MSDS, you would realize that powerservice is 77% regular old #2 diesel fuel. It's no wonder you have to use so much to treat the fuel.
Powerservice is junk, no matter how they choose to make you believe it's good stuff, its all marketing nonsense.
Diesel kleen doesn't contain water dispersants, but DFS has demulsifiers. Since we know that the factory water separators are relatively ineffective, stick with something that emulsifies - like FPPF or primrose 405(summer) or 409(winter).
rbattelle said:
Yes I am still using the Primrose powermaster 405, and will soon switch to 409 for winter. I am a firm believer in the theory of emulsifying additives rather than demulsifying. There is another option that has an emulsifier, which I believe to be also a great product, and that's Redline Diesel Fuel Catalyst (DFC). They also have a product called 85plus, which is the exact same formulation in a different bottle. Both of these products emulsify/disperse the water that is present in all fuel into tiny droplets that harmlessly pass through your system. The reason I'm still using the primrose is because it's very concentrated and is the more cost effective of the two. Redline on the other hand is available at most pepboys and some autozones. You can get primrose at avlube.com , however if you are willing to buy in slightly more bulk, it's much cheaper at www.lubricationspecialties.com . I went in with two diesel owning friends on a case (24 bottles that treat 187 gals each), which worked out quite well.
Pooling/clumping water together in the tank like Stanadyne does and assuming your fuel filter/water separator will stop the slugs of water isn't realistic. As I mentioned previously, we've done fuel analysis tests before and after these so called 'water block' filters or water separators, and the ppm of water barely dropped at all... for example the sample before the filter (this case a 2002 vw TDI) had 72ppm of water in it, and the sample after had 68ppm... . Basically still a ton of water passing through your system in big clumps assuming you use a demulsifying additive like stanadyne.
I should again state I don't sell any of this stuff, I've just done a lot of research over the last 5 years regarding diesel fuel technology, filtration, additives, and lubes. If anyone would like to PM me or has any more questions about this stuff let me know. Hope this helps.
rbattelle said:Been thinking about additives again lately and thought I'd bring up this old thread. Anyone know if the Valvoline stuff is an emulsifier or demulsifier?
-Ryan
No idea, but you could email or call them. There is a fine distinction between what is called a solubizer and an emulsifier, but for general purposes, the same end is achieved. Just a fyi to ppl out there looking for an 'emulsifying' additive. I have been very happy with primrose and redline's additives. Currently using Redline 85+ winterized version.
Pit Bull said:
You definitely do not need additives with these engines if you can guarantee you have a perfect fuel source. For those of us with significant levels of paranoia, we throw them in just to be sure
At about 3 cents more per gallon, most of us can live with that. PittBull by no means do you need it though - plenty of folks have gotten by with no issues.- Status
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
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