Dodge or Ford?

[Joe Turbo Diesel]

Hi to everyone.

I'm new to this site and I would like to know why you chose the Cummins over the Powerstroke or the Duramax diesel. I own the Powerstroke (First diesel truck) but I see that there is more intrest in the Cummins then the Powerstroke or the Duramax. I also see that the company, Cummins has greater customer support for the Dodge Ram with their engines than Ford/Navistar has. Even this website is better than the PSR subscrption. To me the Cummins seems to be a better diesel but I see more Fords being used in the car recovery/ambulance area. Is this because it's an 8 cylinder?

I chose my Ford because of the Powerstroke engine and Ford quality. Are you happy with the quality as far as fit and finish of your truck. Does your dealer service your needs to your liking. Ford service could be better. I would not buy a diesel that has a aluminum heads(GM). I hear that they are not rebuildable. Also I like the fact that my truck was built in USA and not in Mexico. Does this matter to you. Would you buy another Dodge or convert to a Ford or GMC/Chevy?. Also would you stay with the auto or go to the six speed?Any help would be great. Joe

 

[MHindman]

I didn't think you could put quality and ford in the same sentence. hmm, learn something new each day

 

[red1ton]

Welcome to the TRD

You have asked a number of good questions regarding our choice to purchase a Dodge. You will no doubt get a bunch of answers about our choice. First of all, I think everyone will agree the choice was primairly the engine. The Cummins should last (depending on who you ask) from 400-500K miles (if properly maintained) or more and it is built like a tank.



As far as the Duramax, it seems that most agree that you really don't want to buy a vehicle during the first year of production. Some manufacturers use their customers to finalize the product testing. Time will tell with the Duramax.



As far as the numbers of units sold between Dodge and Ford, it seems the lack of a true crew cab is a deal breaker for lots of people. Dodge doesn't have one so they go to Ford. Also it seems the Fords have a heavier frame that allows them to be used as tow trucks.



I also picked my Ram because of the fit and finish and appearance. My last truck was a Ford and I decided I wanted a change.



I believe the automatic is the weak link in this truck. I expect to have to beef it up in the future.



The other attraction is the Cummins has lots of aftermarket stuff that you can bolt on to bring out the true power of the Cummins (CTD).



The best part of owning a CTD is this web site. I know more about my truck that any other vehicle I have ever owned.



Good luck with your choice!

 

[Alan Reagan]

This is my second Ram/Cummins. The first was an auto. Now I have the six speed. Yeah, I'll buy another one down the road. I'd buy a PSD over a Duramax cause I don't like aluminum heads on a diesel engine. The Navistar is a good engine. My neighbor has one. His always cranks over for several seconds before it will start. It is really bad on cold days to get going. But he likes it. His son has a 4X4 Ram TD. He wouldn't drive anything else. I think it's what you are comfortable with.



I was always a Ford owner until I bought my 98 Ram 2500. The Ford gassers got where they had no power and when I would pull a boat or something, I felt like I was going to sling the guts out of the thing. I don't feel that with the Cummins. There is an article in the new Truck Trend (I think that's the name of it) that compares the three. For pure grunt and torque, they recommend the Cummins. For a pretty boy truck go with the Duramax. Ford is in between. I think the Ram/PSD wars are cooling off. Both are proven vehicles in their class.



Duramax gets it's horsepower from turning higher RPMs. Although they advertise 300 hp, their torque is not much more than a Cummins or Ford. Open the hoods. Gonna work on it yourself? Picture yourself doing simple maintenance on your truck. That inline 6 Cummins is easily accessible and is rated medium duty (400,000 between overhauls). PSD is light duty (200,000 to O/H) and I don't know if the Duramax is rated but I believe it will come out as light duty.



Cummins takes 11 quarts of oil. Duramax I believe uses 6. It's a bigger engine with eight cylinders. My 6 cylinder jeep capacity is 6 quarts. Cummins is built for the long haul. And I do mean haul.



The only GM diesel I had used glow plugs. Cummins uses a stainless grid heater for the air and fuel heater for the fuel. I've cranked at 0 degrees and it didn't miss a beat or turn over any more than it does on a 60 day. Try that with a glow plug engine.



If you get a chance compare crank and rod bearing size, rod size, piston size, flywheel, and everything else. You'll be impressed with the way a Cummins is built. The B series 5. 9 is a proven design that has been in service for years. The way they are built, they'll be around for years to come. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Pete Peterson]

Can't see a Diesel in a V-8, its not the correct design. That doesn't mean that they don't work, just not as good as a straight 6 works. Dodge trucks are world famous for their toughness and durability, some folks knock'em but thats because they chip their teeth over almost anything that is different than what they have.

But the bottom line, its your money, you earned it spend it the way you want... ... ..... Pete

 

[dresslered]

Compare the bearing surface areas of our little six to the other guys' eights! I won't ever knock a PowerStroke, but I bought the Dodge for the Cummins as I keep my vehicles forever.

 

[Buckdog]

JAddiego,



Go to www.fleet.ford.com and look at the standard engine for the Ford F650 and F750 trucks. It ain't a Powerstroke. It's a Cummins. Just because you see more Fords used in recovery and ambulance applications, doesn't mean they are V8's. Most of them probably have Cummins engine. I'm not knocking the Powerstroke. It works just fine for what it is designed for, but it is still a light duty engine.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Hi Joe, welcome to the TDR.

My current truck is my 5th Dodge truck in a row, I wouldnt consider anything else. My brother is on his 3rd PSD in a row.

The Chevy is a BAD CHOICE at the present, it's a new engine and a NEW transmission. Let them finish the R&D on someone else.

Ford does NOT offer the PSD on anything over 1 ton; that should give you an idea what they think of it as an engine for serious work. Realistically though, all three trucks have their own design goofiness and inherient problems as well as quality lapses. The last Dodge truck was PERFECT and my CTD 2500 was nearly perfect but it has been to the dealer for some assembly no-brainers. Bottom line is to give your perspective truck a good test drive, my test drive was 400 miles and two days before I signed. I'm biased but I still think that will all things considered the CTD is the finest truck on the road. There is no argument that the CTD is #1. If you choose a Dodge, contact me and I will make specific suggestions on options that are must-haves. Happy Dieseling! George S.

 

[Rcpilotlv]

I Just had to get into this thread. Im not here to knock anyones product or truck but to give simple advice. The above threads have pros & cons of each truck. But I will tell you why I will buy another Dodge cummins over a ford navistar. First,lets talk reliability. The cummins 5. 9 has been around for years. It is a medium duty diesel with a simplistic proven in line six cylinder design. It has been used in everything from RV's, buses,fire trucks,militarys,generators and finally in Dodge Trucks. It Itself weighs more than the larger 7. 3 navistar. Reason being block,crankshaft,rods, and bearings are heavier and are more durable. This gives it a longer Time between overhaul. About 400,000 miles vs 200,000 miles for the navistar. With all the variety of uses you can see that this engine can also be pumped up or bombed to incredible horsepower and torque figures. Not that the navistar can't, but you may risk your reliability and durability Factor. Second, the 7. 3 navistar is a diesel gussler. Everyone that i know who has them constantly complains about Mileage. With my stock truck I get 16-17 miles per gallon(auto)city. Highway about 20-21. Ford owners would kill for that. This may be why navistar is going to a smaller design powerstroke in the future. Yes you know about the size of the trusty 5. 9. As for the duramax only time will tell, its still a V8, has aluminum heads, and is lighter then the cummins. Diesel engines use heat to run. If it gets a little hot, you have two heads to fix instead of one. This could be costly. GUYS BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER,JUST ASK MY WIFE!

 

[jkern]

the reason that you don't see cummins engines in ambulance use is because for many years ford was the only company that produced ambulace cab and chassies or van for ambulance conversion. most all ambulace companies spec the diesel engines because of the durability and higher milage between overhauls than a gasser. i am not endorsing the PSD, i personally have a cummins and would not have a ford until they match the durability, power and reliability of a dodge.



however in more commercial and industrial applications the cummins reigns supreme!!



just thought i would have to add my thoughts

 

[COBRAJET]

They are both fine trucks. I have owned two of each. I currently own one of each. I bought the Cummins for the mileage and simplicity of it. The PSD for 4 doors. They are both very trouble free trucks.



The PSD is available in an F450 and an F550. . both over one ton. The engine is available from INTL as a T444E... . identical to a PSD in applications up to 66K lbs. Do they sell many... probably not, but it is available.



The engine longevity claims stated in earlier posts are for two different measurements. They are stating the B50 life for the Cummins. . ie when 50% of them need rebuilt, which is 350K not 400K. The 200K for the PSD is a B10 life... . ie when 10% of the engines need rebuilt. The B50 is 350K on a PSD as well. This is always misrepresented since Cummins does not rate the B10 life of the 5. 9.



The majority of ambulances are NOT Cummins powered. This engine is not available in a F350-F550. Most of the ambulances are on a F350... straight frame railed Chassis or a F450 which only comes with a straight frame. The F350 is available with a straight frame just for this purpose. The Dodge does not have this option. The GVW is also higher on the F350 Ford... 11. 5K versus 11. 0K for the 3500 Dodge. The straight frame railed F350 Cab/Chassis which is the choice for most of the ambulances and wreckers has a GVW or 12. 5K. If the Ambulance is van based it is always a Ford since the current Dodge van is a unibody and lacks the Cummins option.



I think both trucks serve their customers very well. It should be a matter of preference... CJ



Here is a good link that compares the engines



http://www.navistar.com/school_bus/236.html

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Jaddiego, welcome to the TDR! Very knowledgable group here. I've learned a great deal. I bought my CTD based on recommendations from my Dad who has a 1996 12V, and because I like the looks of it. I love gut wrenching acceleration and a massive amount of steel around myself and family - the CTD delivers and is far less expensive to get stellar performance from than the PSD. From the http://www.dieseldynamics.com website: Stage 3 injectors and boost module for PSD $3000, same thing for the CTD $1000. Add to that the durability, and ease of working on made it an easy decision.

 

[Mill Rat]

I think You would see a lot more Dodge/Cummins trucks out there if Dodge offered a wider variety of cabs and chassis like the competition does.

Another thing that I have seen around here is that the Cummins seems to start better in cold weather, JMO.

The preceeding were opinions, the following are facts, I have owned 3 of these trucks, except for fuel gelling in winter, I have not had as much as ONE problem with all 3 engines. The first truck,(a 91 W-250), I sold in 97 with 70K miles and it is still in use locally and looking good.

Finally, go to a truckstop and open some hoods on the big boys, I don't think You will find anything that says Powerstroke or Duramax.

Hope things work out well for You whatever You choose, but, I know what I will stick with.

 

[Pete Peterson]

Good info here... CJ, not to argue cause I know you do your homework but the 3500 Dodge 6 speed with 4:10 gears is 11K, just ran out and re read my door jam to make sure... ... ... ... Pete

 

[COBRAJET]

Pete,

The complete 2001 sellers guide I have lists the GVW for a 4X4 3500 as 11k. The 4X2 is listed at 10. 5K. Is your truck a 4X4 or a 4X2? Most of the chassis trucks are 4X2 which is why I listed the 10. 5K GVW. I changed the post to 11K since this is the highest available GVW... . CJ

 

[hammersley]

Originally posted by COBRAJET

They are both fine trucks. I have owned two of each. I currently own one of each. I bought the Cummins for the mileage and simplicity of it. The PSD for 4 doors. They are both very trouble free trucks.



The PSD is available in an F450 and an F550. . both over one ton. The engine is available from INTL as a T444E... . identical to a PSD in applications up to 66K lbs. Do they sell many... probably not, but it is available.



The engine longevity claims stated in earlier posts are for two different measurements. They are stating the B50 life for the Cummins. . ie when 50% of them need rebuilt, which is 350K not 400K. The 200K for the PSD is a B10 life... . ie when 10% of the engines need rebuilt. The B50 is 350K on a PSD as well. This is always misrepresented since Cummins does not rate the B10 life of the 5. 9.



The majority of ambulances are NOT Cummins powered. This engine is not available in a F350-F550. Most of the ambulances are on a F350... straight frame railed Chassis or a F450 which only comes with a straight frame. The F350 is available with a straight frame just for this purpose. The Dodge does not have this option. The GVW is also higher on the Ford... 11. 5K versus 11. 0K for the 3500 Dodge. If the Ambulance is van based it is always a Ford since the current Dodge van is a unibody and lacks the Cummins option.



I think both trucks serve their customers very well. It should be a matter of preference... CJ



Here is a good link that compares the engines



http://www.navistar.com/school_bus/236.html

Well I'm not sure we have a comparisson - what we have is IH's spin! Would be nice to see what Mr. C has to say about this. But what the hey - that's what they get paid for - and after all they're all out to reassure us that we made the correct choice - no matter what we buy.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

I chose Dodge over Chevy and Ford for a few reasons. 1, Ford truck cabs are too small. No legroom. I am 6'5 and have driven Ford tow trucks for while and the legroom is real bad. I also dont like the Navistar engine. As a diesel mechanic i used to hate working on them. As for Chevy. You dont need a V8, its overkill. Plus, aluminum heads are horrible. and lastly, its an Isuzu engine. I have also had a TON of problems with GM from my 96' Impala that needed 5 water pumps in 2 years to my Tahoe that needed everythng from a new front axle to a master cylinder, power locks, etc. There customer service stinks. I love Cummins engines, easy to work on, reliable and designer right. I also love the look of the Ram. Nicest interior by far. Would by another one anyday.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest about the mileage CJ. I picked the estimated overhaul mileage off the Navistar and Cummins write ups. Here's one from Autoworld about Cummins. Couldn't find the Navistar estimates (did a search but turned up about 200 trucks for sale) but the engine specs I remember reading gave 200,000 as the expected block overhaul mileage. The Cummins B5. 9 started out as a 200,000 mile engine and was later regraded to a 400,000 mile to overhaul. Probably in the future, Navistar will upgrade their estimates to reflect the higher mileage like Cummins did. I did read where the Duramax was engineered to have an engine life (no mention of overhaul) of 200, 000 miles http://www.johnhanley.com/duramax_diesel.htm which I believe puts it in the light/heavy duty category.



http://www.autoworld.com/news/Dodge/CumminsDiesel.htm



Navistar does have their "90% running at 250,000 without major head, oil pan or front cover removal " statement but everything about the estimate to overhaul has disappeared.



http://www.navistar.com/engine/ford.html



My intent was not to flame PSD or Duramax or give false or misleading info on mileage. I'll run across the brochure that estimates the 200,000 estimate to overhaul. BTW, I didn't see where anyone said that Cummins was the most used engine in ambulances. I believe they said the PSD is the most used and that is correct.



There. Feel like I'm on the Chevy site with some guy telling me to prove it everytime I make a statement. None of this is proof. It's is just public information from the manufacturers that suggests what might be.

 

[Statebull626]

Originally posted by Pete Peterson

Can't see a Diesel in a V-8, its not the correct design. That doesn't mean that they don't work, just not as good as a straight 6 works. Dodge trucks are world famous for their toughness and durability, some folks knock'em but thats because they chip their teeth over almost anything that is different than what they have.

But the bottom line, its your money, you earned it spend it the way you want... ... ..... Pete

I'm by no means an expert on diesels... don't chastize me for this, but being a V-8 doesn't mean its not a good diesel. I drove dump truck for awhile before my current profession and one of the trucks was a Brigadeer w/ a screaming Detroit two stroke. You had to wear ear muffs, but that engine put out a lot of power.



Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade my CTD for any of the above mentioned trucks. I have driven PSD's and I was not impressed. The auto transmission (supposedly better than Dodge) felt sluggish. I took the owner for a ride and he was impressed w/ the performance and was talking about buying a chip. (this was before the 275's) And the interior on the Ford is cheap compared to the Dodge. As for the ambulance issue, our local dept. just took delivery of a new ambulance/rescue rig, alittle bigger than most. A Freightliner w/ none other than a Cummins, sounds just like my Dodge.



When the Duramax came out I kinda had second thoughts, but I have also driven one of these and I believe my Dodge can hang with this. 300hp, maybe flywheel hp. It drives like a car, which is not bad, but I own a truck!!! Talking with some people more in the know than I, the Isuzu is a good engine (supposedly a rework of a 20 yr old design w/ new electronics). I know that isuzus are used in a lot of light industrial (bobcats, etc. ), but Cummins are in the big boys. Too bad Dodge didn't have the foresight to get into bed with Allison.



Sorry for the long post, but just my . 02



Tim

 

[Sky]

Ill make my post short.



DODGE



This is my third and wont be my last.