thank you guys for such a wonderful thread and a very honest one at that I just want to add my thoughts it realy ticks me off when we have someone who bought their programer from another source and the other source just hands them a box and says good luck and the next thing they do is come to us with problems like it won't install corectly or they want us to install it for them for next to nothing we pride ourselfs on customer service and I just feel like I have been kicked in the stones when I hear the "bargain shoppers" brag about how much they saved after we have done all the priceing and comparing for them aggg! I have to stop now before I go to far but once again great thread and have a good day