EGR/DPF Delete on '09 p4500 C&C

[Wiredawg]

Hi all,



I've only put 124 miles on the 4500 but I've noticed the overhead fuel mileage come up over a mpg (around town) to 12. 3 mpg. The seat of the pants feel is a little more responsive and a little quicker turbo spoolup. EGTs are the most noticeable dropping from almost 340' to a little less than 300' at idle and about 275' drop while cruising level at 70 mph unloaded.



I haven't been driving it because I'm installing air horns on it and have made a rocket science project out of it. Right now I'm stymied on getting to the factory horns, well hidden behind the fender liner. I may see if I can trace the wires into the cab so I can tap them in series w/ switch in the cab. Anyway, it might be evening or to to finish.



Happy trails, Wiredawg

 

[Bob4x4]

You don't want to tap in the horn ckt till after the tpm

 

[Wiredawg]

Bob 4X4,



I don't follow your last comment... pls explain.



KLauber,



have some pics of my 4500/Travel Supreme setup posted... do a search. The website is smart and won't let you post the same pic twice.



Now, I went out and bought a Kawasaki Mule 4010 4X4 last night with accessries to be installed. Might have to finish the horn first.



Ron

 

[Bob4x4]

On these computor controlled trucks you want to be very carefull when tapping into any system. Adding a load directly to what would be considered a switch in the old days can give you trouble. Pulling the fender liner is easy then you can use the wires that power your current horn

 

[Wiredawg]

Hi all,



Thought I would share some info with you...



- I appear ro have gained about 1. 3 mpg around town.



- I lost a mpg on the highway, thanks to the wing I didn't remove from my last trip. I don't want to remove it... I want to modify it so I can flaten it on the truck.



- Truck seems to be running slightly cooler... down from 200 to about 190'.



- The EGR is really efficient on C&Cs... no more soot than in the tailpipe of my 3500



- Cooler under the hood without the hot EGR and crossover pipe.



- My truck had a clean idle certification sticker on the side of the hood. I belive the EGR cooler is smaller that the 2500/3500 HDs and has one less inlet port off of the exhaust manifold.



- I am occasionally throwing a code 0401, EGR Performance. I'm working to figure out. No noticeable performance issues.



Will let you know more as I go on.



Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

I appreciate reading your reports. As far as I know your C&C is the only one among TDR members that has received the aftermarket kits and is being observed and reported on.

 

[Jim W]

Ron,

I would guess that the 6. 7L engine in your C&C would be close to a 6. 7L from a 2500/3500HD. With the only difference of the 6. 7L engine being the ECM programming for the C&C engine. With that being said I try to keep my boost pressure under 30 PSI with a maximum of 35 PSI. I am using a Smarty S67 with 23ME software installed on level 3 with all parameters set to default except my TM which is 2. The only time I see that high of boost pressure is when I tow my 5er.

What I fear is the drive pressure on the turbo; I believe this is about 1. 5 to 2 times more than boost pressure. There are several users on other forums who believe that the drive pressure is the real problem with the head lifting and cause the head gasket to fail. My son is after me to install head studs in my truck before I fail the head gasket, still thinking about it.

Jim W.

 

[HBarlow]

Jim,

The engines are "close" in that they are both ISB6. 7s but the C&C has very different engine operating programming, different EGR, and different exhaust treatments.

I think it is reasonable to assume the C&C 6. 7 may behave differently with aftermarket mods also so I'm interested in following wiredawg's experiences much more than I am a pickup.

 

[Jim W]

Jim,



The engines are "close" in that they are both ISB6. 7s but the C&C has very different engine operating programming, different EGR, and different exhaust treatments.



I think it is reasonable to assume the C&C 6. 7 may behave differently with aftermarket mods also so I'm interested in following wiredawg's experiences much more than I am a pickup.

Harvey, I agree with you that the after treatments will be different between the C&C truck and the pick-up such as the ECM, EGR and the exhaust system.



What I am trying to point out is that the basic engine is the same between the pick-up and C&C models. Therefore the boost pressures/drive pressure will affect the head and head gasket the same. High boost pressure will cause the head to lift and cause the head gasket to fail. This is why you monitor boost pressure when a programmer is added.



If Cummins builds engines similar to any other engine manufacture which they do. Then the basic 6. 7L engine will be the same with the only difference being the accessories that are added to the engine. Like the ECM, Air Filter, EGR, Cooling and the exhaust components these are all added to meet the engine configuration required for the intended usage of the model it will be installed in.

Jim W.

 

[firemansdiesel]

The VGT Turbo is too small when ramping up the HP. That's including C&C and 3/4 ton 2500/3500 trucks. It seems safe to keep the boost under 32psi on stock studs with the Smarty or H&S tuning.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey, I agree with you that the after treatments will be different between the C&C truck and the pick-up such as the ECM, EGR and the exhaust system.

What I am trying to point out is that the basic engine is the same between the pick-up and C&C models. Therefore the boost pressures/drive pressure will affect the head and head gasket the same. High boost pressure will cause the head to lift and cause the head gasket to fail. This is why you monitor boost pressure when a programmer is added.

If Cummins builds engines similar to any other engine manufacture which they do. Then the basic 6. 7L engine will be the same with the only difference being the accessories that are added to the engine. Like the ECM, Air Filter, EGR, Cooling and the exhaust components these are all added to meet the engine configuration required for the intended usage of the model it will be installed in.
Jim W.

Jim,

You are overlooking the fact that ECM programming is different on the C&C engine and the effect of adding an aftermarket black box is probably different also.

 

[Wiredawg]

Friends,



MADS just hit me back asking me to check my connectors that have been dsiconnected to make sure they are clean. I taped them, but am thinking of redoing them and filling with dielectric grease and retaping closed. I purchased a 60 psi boost gauge from Genos and will replace the 30 psi one. This project was pretty fragmented as my Mom passed away and a few days later, my wife fractured her leg in two places. Work has been crazy too.



Anyway, I'm going back through and thoroughly rechecking everything. And, I've been looking at new head studs and may do that too. I want to see what boost actually is.



Finally, if I can get and sustain at least 1 MPG or better AND resolve all issues, I will keep the mods. If not, I'll put her back the way it was. I'll report it honestly, because we all have a stake in this if we want to continue to live our draems to RV and get a little break in fuel costs.



See y'all later,



Ron

 

[jgillott]

Did you happen to take an oil sample pre-delete? I'd be interested to see what your analysis looks like pre and post delete, especially considering that you started with the Cab and Chassis tuning. I don't recall seeing the comparison on anything other than standard pickups.

 

[Wiredawg]

I haven't done oil samples on this becuase I've been getting free oil changes every 3ooo miles since I bought the truck and just nearing 25K miles. I can tell you the oil is amazing though. It does not turn black, but stays new looking. Can't explain it other than very good filtration and very clean truck. Honestly, I don't believe I have as many regens. My truck will run through regen around town though, in stop and go traffic. I guess that is how it earned clean idle certification.



My last oil change is end of May, when my 3-yr/36K mile warranty ends. I will start preforming oil analysis when I start changing my own oil at 5K mile intervals.



Wiredawg

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



I'm pretty close to ending the test and putting everything back. Neither the instructions for the EGR delete in the kit nor the Smarty instructions match the setup on my 4500. I have not been able to stop setting code 0401. I plan on trying a couple of things, but if not resolved by next Saturday, I will declare my test failed, regardless of any fuel savings, if I can't stop setting codes.



I'll post more later.



Thanks, Ron

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

Were your kits built specifically for the cab and chassis or are they primarily intended for 6. 7 pickups? I assume you've been communicating with Bob Wagner or the programmer.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



The EGR delete kit included the C&C, but not exclusively. The DPF delete kit was exlusively C&C. The EGR kits are really just block off plates and replacement brackets. I've only been dealing w/ MADS (in Italy) so far, but plan to contact the EGR kit manufacturer to get their take. There is a conflict in the instructions fram MADS and the EGR kit folks that I will check. Problem is it takes a while for the code to set.



I'm sending emails today and will report response.



Ron

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

Aftermarket products are often a disappointment. Most of us take for granted the incredible amount of engineering and reengineering that goes into each component and the entire truck before we ever see one. Perfection in a complicated and computerized vehicle like our Rams is not an accident.

I was beginning to get interested in duplicating your effort but I don't like codes or CELs. I'll continue following your testing and reporting.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



I just emailed MADS again and Custom-Diesel for assistance. You are right about engineering. MADS tuner works great on my truck in stock state, but the problem I see is there is not a single vendor that has the whole package. No big loss if this doesn't work out as the DPF delete pipe was $135 and EGR delete was $109. I will be fair with the vendors in telling them that if this does not work, I will post that info and present my recommendation to not attempt.



Last email, MADS mentioned something about shimming the rail pressure relief valve, but not sure waht that is. I need to investigate and see what this is.



Thanks, Ron

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



There is a sensor on my EGR crossover pipe that neither EGR Delete instructions or MADS showed on there diagrams. MADS shows keeping the EGR Valve motor plugged in to keep from setting codes (they don't say which one(s)), but the EGR Delete Co tells you to delete/unplug everything on the EGR.



I cleared the code 0401 on my truck and plugged in the sensor no one shows. It did not set a code when I started it, so we'll see what happens. Next, I may unplug the motor MADS says to keep plugged in to see what happens. It seems like I may be the first to mod thier C&C or admit doing it.



I'll let you know what Custom-Diesel and MADS say when they respond.



Thanks, Ron