EGR/DPF Delete on '09 p4500 C&C

[Wiredawg]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to install the 60 psi gauge tonight. Does anyone know what the stock limit or highest safe boost pressure is? I've searched everywhere to find this so I can assess. I found ARP head studs for $449. 00 free shipping and instructions did not seem too hard.



More to come.



Thanks again.



Ron

 

[Wiredawg]

I installed the 60psi gauge so it will be interesting to see how high the boost goes. Interesting sidenote: the head must be pretty good on my engine, as I drove the truck to Canada and back towing my 17K 5er on SW#5. I was in tow/haul mode and rarely did it down shift. There were many, many times the30psi boost gauge needle was buried.



I asked MADS if they know what the boost limit or high boost is on a stock 6. 7L. I hope with their experience, they can answer.



Still, more to come.



Ron

 

[KDoerr]

Ron thanks for the information your putting out for us it is a big help. .

 

[HBarlow]

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Before anyone points out that Ron has a C&C and not a pick-up truck. Will the engine that is used in the C&C is the same as in a pick-up truck and when modifying the ECM on a C&C with an aftermarket programmer, the effects will be the same as in a pick-up truck. So that is why gages are so important to monitor what is happening to the engine now and to understand the risks that are associated with modifications.
Jim W.

Jim,

You continue repeating that line but repeating it doesn't make it true. Do you have anything from the manufacturer, programmer, or retailer of the Smarty box to back up that opinion?

I've never owned or used one but I've read hundreds of posts from owners who refer to the modes as +xxxhp or +xxxft. lbs. of torque. C&C engines are programmed for 305hp and 610ft. lbs. torque not the 350/650 of pickup engines. If the programmer boxes add a specific value to the existing power level they obviously produce a different result when applied to a pickup.

Do the programmers increase injector timing or pressure to a specific level in either engine or are they programmed to increase power by a specific hp and tq number starting from the factory programming? I'd like to know what the manufacturer says about this. If you have a statement from MADS or Marco who I have read is the programmer please post it.

You also continually repeat the mantra that that is the reason why gauges are important. Most of us have known since we purchased a Dodge with Cummins engine that gauges are vital if any modifications whatsoever are done and useful on any engine, modified or OEM. I think everyone agrees with this. I've used gauges on my three Rams since each was new.

 

[Jim W]

Harvey, thanks for the loaded question.

I could write a 2 page single space document to answer your questions but I won't. Maybe this is the best way to answer you your questions.

The Smarty turner does change several parameters that affect the hp and torque output of the truck increasing in portion to the stock settings depending on what level of increase the user has chosen. How the Smarty tuner goes about this is proprietary information which MADS does not publish. Just like Ram will not publish the software code for the ECM on their trucks, but you can buy a truck and reverse engineer to find out what individual coding effects what parameters that are needed to be change to provide more HP/TQ on the engine.

This is what MADS has published and how they came up with the HP/TQ output of each performance level. From what they are saying the performance level increase are additive to the base line stock engine, so if you have a 305 HP/610LB-ft of torque on a C&C and add CaTCHER level 5 to the truck you will now have 395HP/790LB-Ft of torque. The way that this is done at the higher levels of power increase is changing the Injection Timing, Higher boost levels (boost tables are modified so the truck will not de-fuel), Spooling of the Turbo charger earlier by as much as 200 RPM's and altering Torque management.

Per the MADS Site and I quote.

"Tested on stock trucks on our in house Dyno Dinamics Twin

Retarder Dyno.

Stock means just that. Stock! Even the air filters were stock...



We checked the "baseline" ( the stock truck hp at the rear

wheels ) twice in a day in order to be sure about our findings.

The above declared hp numbers are all rounded down to the

closest number. For example the 90 hp file actually did 96 hp.

That's a 90 hp software for me, not a 100. The 170 hp was 176. "



Does this answer your questions better?

Jim W.

 

[HBarlow]

Thanks, Jim. The information answers my question and confirms what I assumed was the case.

If as in your example the Smarty is set to add 90 hp that will mean ~395 hp total for a C&C and ~445 hp for a pickup. The way I view that comparison is the ISB6. 7 used in the pickup will be producing more hp and tq than the C&C and I think it is reasonable to assume will be more stressed than the more mundane power levels of the "boring" to some C&C.

We may have been arguing semantics. You have argued that "the effects will be the same" perhaps meaning the total amount of increase will remain the same while I have been arguing the end result will not be the same referring to total power output.

It's good to know what the manufacturer says.

 

[AH64ID]

Don't forget that Smarty advertises rwhp, and OEM advertises crank hp. So a +90 tune on a 305 C&C would be more like 410 crank hp. But it's also not that simple, as the 90hp gain may or may not be a peak gain. The Smarty Jr on SW1 is a 40hp gain in the mid range, not peak. So it essentially made my 325/610 motor a 335/690 motor.

 

[Wiredawg]

Hi all,



Today, the highest I could get the boost up to was 32 or 35 PSI. I'm not sure if this is within tolerance of stock turbo and driveline pressures. I'm still looking for that number. Also, found a nice wastegate kit for $499. Lots easier to install than head studs for a little more safety. I've gone through this before where I'm debating SW#3 and SW#5. SW#3 is safer, but SW#5 is sweet much sweeter performance. My experience in industrial technology is manufacturers usually build 10 to 20% overhead in performance criteria because, from a quality standpoint, it's less expensive to manufacture to a higher criteria with a varience than percisely to an advertized standard. The transmission is rated at 730 lb/ft so a min 10% increase in standard w/ +/- varience of 2 to 5% still gives me overhed to use SW#5. Also, I'm not racing, using it agressively and run at higher RPMs. If I can determine where I am with drive pressures on stock head and boost on turbo, I can manage risk.



It has been a while since I've run stock, so can one of ya'll with stock C&Cs let us know what your boost tops out at.



Thanks, Ron

 

[AH64ID]

Boost is good to 38-40 on that compressor before you get inefficient. Drive pressure is the limiting factor, but it's hard to say what the limit is, because it's not the actual DP that is the problem, but the effect it has on cylinder pressure which is driven by DP/boost/timing.

 

[Wiredawg]

AH64ID,



What I want to do is determine the highest allowable boost, taking into account there is a relationship between boost pressure (BP) and drive pressure (DP). Folks have said there is an approx relationship of DP to BP at 2 to 1. So if we can determine the highest boost a stock heavily loaded C&C will allow, I can use that as a baseline. Best case, I can use everything the way I have it now, as I have over the past year except for the deletes. Worst case, I have to install head studs and/or turbo wastegate.



Harvey, you are the only one else I know who uses their C&C to tow heavy 5ers. Do you recall max boost pulling a long hill? Any others driving a C&C heavy that know boost numbers?



I know the p/u's and the C&Cs both have 6. 7s, but I want to limit assumptions as much as possible by comparing the derated motors of the C&Cs.



Thanks, Ron

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

I have driven my truck so little and towed my fifthwheel so seldom in the last year and a half I've forgotten. Both remain in the barn as I run the wheels off my Goldwing. I will try to remember to look at the boost gauge and think about it tomorrow to refresh my fading memory and I'll try to provide you with an answer as best I can.

What my fuzzy memory wants me to say is that it would reach 30 psi but it "reluctantly" approaches that level. Boost rises slowly to the maximum level much slower than my previous '06 which was a 325 hp pickup.

Watching the boost gauge under full load, full power reveals how differently the C&C is tuned when compared to the HPCR 5. 9 in the '06.

 

[AH64ID]

I would put a gauge in and watch it. With the VGT the DP ratio will be even less constant than a non-VGT. My HE351CW (non-VGT) would be anywhere from 1. 2:1-2:1 based on load, rpm, accel or constant rpm. With the VGT you also have to figure VGT tuning as well. DP at 30 psi of boost on a stock truck will not be the same as on a tuned truck, just the nature of different timing and VGT tuning.

As far as max allowable DP, again that's a tough one. The motor itself can see 60# before you have any issues (think exhaust brake), I really think if you are concerned about it a gauge is best. But I doubt you will have any issues below 2500 rpms.

 

[KDoerr]

Hey all. I have the smarty set at #5 and pulling the hills the boost comes up to 32 psi for about 30 seconds to a minute and falls down to 25-30 psi. but i still have the stock turbo on the truck. Hope this helps.

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



Gianfranco from MADS replied to my email asking if the 6. 7L Cummins needs turbo wastegate or head studs. His response is "A Smarty S67 is safe on a stock truck up to CaTCHER level #5, above this an aftermarket clutch/ transmission is suggested. " My truck seems to bear this out since I've run it on SW#5 for over a year. He also said the stock truck will make 44 PSI boost. I replied to confirm becuse he had this wording: "ECM can boost fool up to 44 PSI. " I'n to sure if the word should be full or fooled... makes a big difference.



I realize I am and have been for some time my own warranty station, my warranty expires the end of this month. I'm going to keep it as is.



I will watch my gauges, continue to drive conservatively and report the bad as well as the good. Also, my wife and I are taking our granddaughter to Disney world the end of the month, so I will have some towing updates. I figure all numbers should be better without the restriction. Not too may grades though between San Antonio and Florida.



Please continue to add comments and opinions... that's what this collaboration is all about.



Thanks, Ron

 

[Wiredawg]

Hi ya'll,



I received clarification from Gianfranco at MADS on max boost generated on stock truck... 25 to 30 psi. The Smarty can boost fool up to 44psi. What I saw appears slightly above at 32 to 35 psi.



MADS has been really great about getting right back with me. . super customer support.



Thanks, Ron

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



Well, here I am again to recant my errors. Dodge/Cummins lists 305 hp/610 tq at the crank and MADS measures increases at the rear wheels. I've been told autos have an approx 20% loss in hp/tq from crank to the rear wheels, so, in order to measure increase of ho/tq at the crank, you need to multiply rear wheel hp/tq by a factor of 1. 20. So, in reality, at SW#5 +90hp at the rear wheels, you actually see (90hp x 1. 20) + 305hp = 413 hp actually at the crank and the same formula for tq (180tq x 1. 20) + 610 = 826 tq at the crank. This is more tq than I beleive I should be applying to the transmission.



Here are the calculations for SW#3 at the crank: (60hp x 1. 20) + 305hp = 377hp at the crank and (120tq x 1. 20) + 610tq = 754tq at the crank. At SW#3, I'm still exceeding 730tq of Aisin, but it is within the range of the built in overhead of the Aisin.



I'm never afraid to admit I'm wrong, so I'm setting MADS at SW#3 to save the transmission. Thanks for being patient with me as I get the relationships, percentage gains and losses, and the buttom line straight.



I belive I have it right now, so we'll see how everything turns out.



Talk to ya later,



Ron





810

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

I'm not an engineer, it's early in the morning, and I just poured my first cup of coffee but I don't think that calculation will work.

The differential multiplies torque at the rear wheels approximately 4. 44 times and if the transmission is in any gear other than direct it also multiplies torque.

 

[AH64ID]

Ron,

I'm not an engineer, it's early in the morning, and I just poured my first cup of coffee but I don't think that calculation will work.

The differential multiplies torque at the rear wheels approximately 4. 44 times and if the transmission is in any gear other than direct it also multiplies torque.

You don't need to factor in the diff or trans gearing when looking at rwhp. Dyno's measure acceleration to determine hp, and then reference motor rpm to calculate torque. So it's not hp to the ground in the form you are thinking. Stock crank is 305, but rwhp is probably 250-260, so you can add the +60 to that number and be at 310 rwhp. To factor crank from rwhp it's between . 85 and . 80. So about 350-375 at the crank, so his math is correct.

Really the only way to know for sure is to put it on a dyno, but you get close with the math and that's really all you need. Tq is about double hp, but on some tunes is more than double, but not much.

 

[HBarlow]

Ron,

I towed my fifthwheel into town this afternoon to dump the holding tanks at the city park and climbed a grade both ways. Under full load, full throttle, 2300 rpm, in fourth gear/direct, max boost was 30 psi.

 

[Wiredawg]

Thanks Harvey!



I think I'm all dialed in now. And between all of us, have amassed some pretty good info about the 6. 7. I appreaciate your particiaption and the rest of the members in working through each of the issues. Of all the info gathered, the sensitivity of the intake sensors to detect a miniscule leakmis the most incredible. That almost caused me to cancel the whole project.



I look forward to documenting changes to see full impact of the project.



Take care, Ron