Emjay Engineering controller ?

[emjay]

Let me make this crystal clear

1. I never told Bill that I would send him a controller. I told him that I would be willing to, but he did not ask me to.



2. DTT was the FIRST company that I attempted to contact with the product (several times).



3. I have tried to contact Bill many times over the past six months, asking for his evaluation of the product. Only once did he return my call.



4. Only after DTT's own customers began asking DTT about the product did Bill show any interest. When I did speak to him, I said that I may be able to make it up to Washington around Thanksgiving. He told me to call back when I had a date firmed up. I called and left a message for Bill in early November, he did not return my call. I subsequently did not make the trip. He is very hard to get a hold of, I wasn't willing to drive over 1,000 miles (one way) and risk not being able to talk to him.



5. If Bill is truly interested in the product, he is free to order one from the web site. He may also request an eval unit. He has yet to do either.



6. The controller works fine with stock and modified (ATS) valve bodies. I have at least one very happy customer with a DTT trans. I know of no reason why the controller will not work or expose or cause any anomalies, flaws, features, undesirable characteristics, bugs, or other unexpected behaviour when used in conjunction with the DTT transmission.



I will re-word my web page, because admittedly, taken out of context, the quote that you have referred to sounds biased.



The Emjay Strategy controller is a fine product. The first of many. It will be marketed and sold on its merits and capabilities, and backed up by a three-year warranty.



That is all I have to say.

 

[StakeMan]

Sounds like miscommunitcaion. Lets all take a deep breath and see is this gets resolved.

 

[emjay]

Except for one more thing...

Boldt's Wagon mentioned that Emjay Engineering does not mention the transmission warranty. When you buy a set of tires, does the tire manufacturer provide a wheel warranty? If you buy a case of transmission fluid and only put one quart in, does the transmission fluid manufacturer cover the cost of a new transmission?



Obviously, the answers to these questions is no. Are they an oversimplified example? Yes.



While it may be conceivable to damage a transmission by deliberately adjusting settings beyond reason, to do so would be tantamount to buying an aftermarket distributor for your gasser, and adjusting the timing to the point of piston meltdown.



Yes, you could set the TCC to unlock at 15 MPH. The first time you come to a stop, it should be instrinsically obvious to the most casual observer that something is dreadfully wrong. If it is not, those adjustments are best left to a professional transmission mechanic or at least a knowledgeable person. Will it damage the transmission? Over a period of repeated occurance, perhaps. Once or twice? Probably not.



The Strategy controller does not and cannot affect line pressure. It changes the <i>governor</i> pressure curves. The governor pressure varies from zero at a stop to its maximum at some pre-defined speed. The Strategy controller is capable of changing the speed at which the maximum pressure is attained, and changing the slope, or curve of the response. That is how it modifies shift points. Setting the governor pressure curves beyond a reasonable limit will at worst cause the transmission to go into limp mode.



I never asked Bill for anything other than his opinion of my product.



That's all folks! Really!

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Ok, just let me say this , i don't get it. Why is this such a big deal?

Everyone knows Bill hates electronics , he only designed the smart controller to try and help the transmisison . He was looking forward to testing this unit per his discussions with emjay, to verify the pressure testing and that was that. It was as simple as that if all was well he would endorse the product and get out of the electronics end of it.



Most of the features in the emjay controller are found in the smart controller, Bill doesnt care about that. Our controller is built for us by an electronic company so we don't care. If emjay's controller is better and passes the pressures testing Bill will be the first guy doing the dance of joy.



Emjay, what you said about being able to tune out electronic problems like hunting and bind up means you can also tune them in.



Most transmission companies that build valve bodies and transmissions have controllers that can control the governor circuit , lock up circuit, shift solenoids , basically they can control the transmisison independent of the pcm. The point is this type of equiptment is in the hands of trained technicians. These professionals will tell you they can create a bind up shift by controlling the governor circuit.



Our own shop uses the answermatic 4000 and a trans ex 2000 controller that costs over $ 20,000 to set up and avoid these types of headaches.



Shaft you are a suncoast customer, ask them, BD guys ask Steve, if the controller creates a bind up shift who is going to carry the transmission warranty?



Emjay, we are asking you now, will you send it so we can test it? If it works and is safe he will get out of the electronics end of it and endorse it , so how it ?

 

[emjay]

First of all, I don't see how the Smart Controller has "most" of the features of the Strategy. However, I will leave product comparison to reviewers of each. All I can say to anyone is compare the features of each and see if you agree.



Second, I do not believe that DTT is capable of providing an objective assessment of the product, especially given the feudal relationship between DTT and ATS. Although it has not been formally announced, it is pretty much public knowledge at this point that ATS is endorsing the Strategy product. That, in my mind, makes DTT's opinion biased at least. I personally have reason to distrust DTT because I was mistakenly copied on an email reply from DTT to one of their customers in which I was called a liar, and that DTT was going to "get on this right away". That by the way, is a perfect example of libel on the part of DTT. I am not going to get into a pi**ing match over that, though. I would be willing to provide a test unit to an unbiased test facility that can back up their test results with hard facts and data.



Third, as far as I know, the issue of "bind up" is unproven. You mentioned that certain professionals have proven that bind up is essentially a repeatable anomaly, and can be triggered with manipulation of the governor pressure. If this is indeed true, what are the parameters that cause this to occur? In order to properly troubleshoot a problem, you must have a set of symptoms, and any conclusion drawn must explain all of the symptoms. Often there is more than one culprit responsible for a set of symptoms. In that case, any one conclusion must provide definitive evidence as to how and if it affects other symptoms. Anything else is specious reasoning, and you are basically fishing for answers, trying to make a symptom go away rather than explain its cause. Bill always says he lives and dies by the gauges, so what are the conditions that cause bind up? I'd like to recreate it myself. What I would need to know is:



1. Manual valve position, and whether it is accurately located in its detent



2. State of the following transmission clutches and bands:

a) Front clutch

b) Front Band

c) Rear Clutch

d) Rear Band

e) Overrun Clutch



3. State of the following overdrive clutches:

a) Overdrive Clutch

b) Direct Clutch

c) Overrun Clutch



4. The following pressures at bind up:

a) Rear servo

b) Governor

c) Accumulator

d) Overdrive Clutch



3. Current measured through the governor solenoid



4. Voltage at the signal (output) lead of governor pressure sensor



5. State of the TCC and OD solenoids



6. Position of the remaining valves in the valve body:

a) Shuttle Valve

b) 1-2 Shift control valve

c) Throttle Valve

d) Kickdown Valve

e) Boost Valve

f) L/U switch valve

g) 3-4 Quick fill valve

h) 3-4 timing valve

i) 3-4 shift valve

j) Lockup valve

k) Lockup timing valve

l) Accumulator



Armed with all of this information, let's work together and prove or disprove the bind up theory.



According to the D/C service manual, the diagnosis chart for "Dragging or Locks Up" contains eight possible causes. Granted, the manual is probably not complete in its listing of causes, but none of the listed causes mention governor pressure. The possible causes listed are:



1. Fluid Level Low

2. Clutch Dragging/Failed

3. Front or Rear Band Misadjusted

4. Case Leaks Internally

5. Servo Band or Linkage Malfunction

6. Overrunning Clutch Worn

7. Planetary Gears Broken

8. Converter Clutch Dragging



I submit to you that some other failure or anomaly in the transmission may be exacerbated by the application or manipulation of governor pressure, but variation in governor pressure itself is not the underlying cause. Since governor pressure is determined ostensibly by output shaft speed, that would imply that the transmission is susceptible to bind up at a certain speed or range of speeds. Given the number of transmissions out there (millions at least) this beast would have reared its ugly head long before now, and been dealt with by Chrysler Corporation long before the 47RE even existed.



Help us set this issue to rest. Bring out the truth. Post your findings. If you are not willing to, perhaps you can recommend another shop that has equipment like the answermatic 4000 and/or trans ex 2000 controller that presumably can help nail down this issue.



Best Regards,

 

[ATSDiesel]

Quote: Bill Kondolay (DTT Transmission)



DTT POSITION ON EMJAY ENGINEERING STRATEGY CONTROLLER



Diesel Transmission Technology's company position is the following: DTT WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE DONE TO YOUR TRANSMISSION with the installation of this transmission controller. With this controller he is taking control of the governor circuit which can cause a 2-3 bind up shift YOU ARE YOUR OWN WARRANTY STATION. after adding this device.





To ease the concerns of any DTT customers regarding the use of the EMJAY Strategy Controller with the DTT transmission, ATS will take care of any warranty concerns that have been caused by the use of this EMJAY controller. There is a possibility of TCC damage on any single disc clutch type torque converter if the proper programming directions are not followed to release (Turn off) the converter clutch under high torque load applications. As far as the 2-3 bind up goes there should be no concerns. The governor circuit is modified to Taylor shift timing. This is no different than modifying the TV circuit. The TV circuit and the governor circuit work against each other to move the shift valves (Snap Valves). All shift valves are designed as snap valves; a snap valve is designed to snap from on side of the bore to the other. This type of valve train is used for shift valves to eliminate the possibility of a valve hanging between the lands. The factory has been using this type of design in the Dodge transmission for over 50 years. In 1996 Dodge removed the mechanical governor from the transmission and replaced it with an electronic solenoid to emulate governor pressure. The valve body remained the same as far as the rest of the hydraulics. Now that we have an electronic governor we can change the curve of the governor pressure electronically instead of changing it mechanically (springs and weights). Think of the governor pressure as a hydraulic speedometer. As you can see, any external signals sent to the Dodge 47-RE transmission can not cause a bind up condition. This should help clear up any potential warranty concerns regarding possible DTT transmission failure.



Clint Cannon

ATS Diesel Performance

 

[tcourse]

Most of the features in the emjay controller are found in the smart controller, Bill doesnt care about that. Our controller is built for us by an electronic company so we don't care. If emjay's controller is better and passes the pressures testing Bill will be the first guy doing the dance of joy.



Emjay,



What part of this don't you understand?



I was ready to purchase from you, but asked Bill for his blessing.

I understood Stephan to say they would have no problem using your product in place of the Smartcontrolor(Stephan, correct me if I misunderstood your position. )



As I see it, you appear to be in bed with ATS, which from my point of view very much limits your market.



tcourse

 

[tractorface]

why does any thread with ATS and DTT in it turn into a ******* match. I need an auto transmission and was really having trouble before I started reading posts now I am convinced one of the "other " guys is safer. I am sure ATS and DTT both make a great product but... ... . I started this thread just to find out if anyone ran the Emjay and liked it. I think I heard a HELL YES somewhere in there. No I'm not sayin who's transmission I'm goin with cause I don't think anyone should care (other than the guy's I'm not spendin money with) Have fun pissin on one another.



Hey how about a "celebrity deathmatch" episode featuring... ... .

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Ok guys enough of this he said she said let's keep it on track.



Here's the offer because we are serious about testing and not afraid to do so in public.



Why don't we all put our money where our mouth is, lets not use the customers money to justify words like , should not , could not, may not cause damage. Lets put our own money up just to keep everyone honest, DTT, ATS, emjay. This is not a game it is very serious .



Public gathering of TDR guys, we will bring our equipment and if we prove we can simulate the bind up using nothing but the governor circuit we win , winner takes all. Pretty simple None of this fancy talk, lets just do it.



Clint Cannon before promising to take care of our customers warranty, please look after your own guys first.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Tcourse,



You are correct, we would recommend it if it passes the testing. I dont get why its such a big deal. This isnt even about ATS or DTT, this is about simply testing to make sure it doesnt adversly effect the transmission. See we kind of look at it like a Edge Box, everyone carries them because they work for everyone.



That is what this product would have been handled like ,we dont care who else handles it. So we just don't get it.

I dont think we can say it any plainer than that.

 

[emjay]

tcourse: There is no part of it that I don't understand. I disagree with the statement that "Most of the features in the emjay controller are found in the smart controller".



Make your own decision based on the facts.

 

[BFC]

Emjay,



Will you send one to DTT for eval? They have painly asked but you still haven't answered. I have to agree with Stephan on the analogy with The Edge boxes, if it works sell it. Good for everybody manufacturer and dealers AND CUSTOMERS.



Thanks,



Glenn

 

[emjay]

I did answer the question. Go back and read my next to last post. That is my position.



Good Day.

 

[TDRadmin]

Keep It Professional

We would love to have more vendor participation in the TDR Discussion Forums. Professional input/insights are welcomed! But, we don't need vendor-to-vendor challenges, etc.



To all vendors involved in this thread, for your own sake, keep it professional and helpful to the customers.



I cannot say this any clearer: You only hurt yourselves by engaging in attacks/assaults.



Robin

TDR Admin

 

[tcourse]

Mike

I my intent is not to challenge you or disagree with you. I'm just interested in your product for my truck.

My understanding so far is that DTT could care less if it has features that are in the smart controller. I've heard both Bill and Stephan say they would promote the Strategy if it performs well on their Transmissions. Do you not want to do business with Bill because of your relationship with ATS? Will you sell me a Strategy so Bill can check it out before he puts it on my truck?

And will you take it back if I don't think its for me?

I'm asking as a Dodge owner with an interest in your product,

nothing more.



Thanks,

Terry

 

[dramer]

New Emjay Controller

This controller works very well it’s been in my truck for a little over a week. Very impressed with the performance of it.

1. It has all the ability to adjust all of the shift points from 1st to 4th gear

2. Lockup control at any speed on or off.

3. Exhaust brake control (custom) programming for the brake.

4. The overdrive cancel button can be programmed for overdrive cancel or converter lockup control at any speed. (This is providing you have the inhibit circuit in the valve body modified). This inhibit circuit is what keeps the signal valve from locking the torque converter clutch up at 1st & 2nd gear. This also cuts the converter clutch from on to off on a downshift 4th to 3rd gear. With this valve body mod the controller has full control for any combination you can come up with.

5. Being able to change the base factory voltage curve from the 5 volt to lower or higher ranges. This will work as follows. The lower the voltage the shorter the shifts can be achieved. The higher the voltage curve the longer the shifts get.

6. Control with the APPS voltage or speed control over shift point.

7. The starting voltage curve at the governor pressure sensor can be changed. This will help other vendors that use resistors for line pressure increases. (The resistor is no longer needed) Our company found the right Pressure Regulator combination not to have the need for the resistor anymore. Other vendors that still need to use resistors will enjoy this controller. The rate of line pressure increase is the key. The faster the line rise during acceleration causes the fault code problem. The base line pressure also has an effect.

8. The software is windows based very user friendly to use.

9. The controller has 3 levels of control using a 3-position switch (Stock) (Towing) (Loaded) each level can be custom set to anything you want!

10. The software has graph charts for programming TPS voltage or speed control.

11. The unit mounts clean and virtually undetectable from the eye. VERY CLEAN.

12. The electrical connections, wiring, etc. , are high quality gear VERY NICE.

13. Much more in options can be later added. GREAT work from Mike Steiger.



Our Review of this unit is (We will stand behind the Emjay Controller with our name on it!)



Don Ramer ATS Diesel Performance.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I would hate to think that I had to get anything out of this thread as a TDR member... ... . I see zero people skills here!



People skills are like teaching in a classroom and thinking how would/is the student perceiving this and trying to learn from it.



Sad thing is some working class person is reading this thread and thinking..... dang were do I spend my $12. 00/hour money at! I'm just Glad I don't have to make that decision.



Jim (working class) Fulmer

 

[SlyBones]

Don Ramer,



Did ATS stand behind the emjay controller "with our name on it" BEFORE you ever had a chance to try one on your truck. Or was it AFTER you have had it for a week and got to try it, etc.

 

[dramer]

Q&A

We were given the same chance as all the venders to gain a test box to play with.



Quote:

EmjayEmjay Engineering LLC Registered:

Let me make this crystal clear 1. I never told Bill that I would send him a controller. I told him that I would be willing to, but he did not ask me to. 2. DTT was the FIRST company that I attempted to contact with the product (several times). 3. I have tried to contact Bill many times over the past six months, asking for his evaluation of the product. Only once did he return my call. 4. Only after DTT's own customers began asking DTT about the product did Bill show any interest. When I did speak to him, I said that I may be able to make it up to Washington around Thanksgiving. He told me to call back when I had a date firmed up. I called and left a message for Bill in early November, he did not return my call. I subsequently did not make the trip. He is very hard to get a hold of, I wasn't willing to drive over 1,000 miles (one way) and risk not being able to talk to him. 5. If Bill is truly interested in the product, he is free to order one from the web site. He may also request an eval unit. He has yet to do either.



My Response:

I have been reading the same things all of you have. As for the information regarding this topic we had from what I understand is the same opportunity as anyone else did. We just ordered it paid for it and tested it and that’s all. Hope this helps answer your questions. As for when we stood behind the controller it certainly would have been after testing. I would think that would be self explanatory. Hope this helps



Don Ramer ATS Diesel Performance.

 

[Bob Wagner]

here is a legitimate question

Re:Emjay Strategy Controller

« Reply #15 on: Today at 01:01:40pm »



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don,



Did I just read that ATS will repair any DTT transmission that is damaged by the controller? Why would you or ATS feel responsible for repairing another vendors transmission from a product you dont even manufacture or sell yet?



Don~