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Emjay Engineering controller ?
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Originally posted by Pit Bull
Diesel Transmission Technology's company position is the following: DTT WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE DONE TO YOUR TRANSMISSION with the installation of this transmission controller. With this controller he is taking control of the governor circuit which can cause a 2-3 bind up shift YOU ARE YOUR OWN WARRANTY STATION. after adding this device.
Can/will, bottomline does not warrant it on his transmissions.
Shovelhead, I like being on the sidelines. That is one of the reasons I bought one of these "great" 6 speed manual transmissions :-laf Just seems to be a lot of stress being a auto guy.
Dont see in that statement where DTT says it does not work. Shovelheads interpretation is correct.
Chris is correct, bind up is not isolated to one transmission manufacturer. It is the result of shift valve speed which is controlled by throttle pressure and governor pressure and valve spring. Add to that band adjustment, add to that clearances in the 3rd gear clutch pack. I’m telling you guys, I did not feel the bind up shift, but the pressure gauge showed me it was there.
It is amazing how some guys can take Bill’s words and add a twist.
What a lot of you guys may not realize is that DTT has been testing and perfecting the governor circuit for over 2 years now. We had to make many changes to accommodate the smart controller. Specific component had to be designed to assist the transmission’s longevity.
DTT update kits come with a 4. 4 ratio lever that replaces the oem one of 3. 8. That is done because the 4. 4 ratio lever will give you more holding capacity than the factory 3. 8. If you guys want, do some homework and you will see that the Chrysler engineers must agree with us that the Dodge transmission needs more holding capacity for 2nd gear as they have changed the new 48RE transmissions to a 4. 2 ratio lever.
For example, if you you are take a 3rd gear drum that weighs over 7 lbs assembled turning at 1500 rpms and making it go to
0 rpms within . 01 of a second it is the second gear band that must take the drum and stop it from turning from 1500 rpms to 0 rpms and that was why DTT went to the 4. 4 ratio lever. On our testing we did 2500 rps - 0 rpms that is 3rd gear locked to 2nd gear locked.
It is not that we have not heard customers complain that they would like their transmissions to down shift into 2nd.
The smart controller for 2 years now has had the ability to force a 3 - 2 downshift and customers have been doing that successfully. The Smart controller takes a 3rd gear locked position and allows the driver to force the shift into 2nd gear while maintaining lockup. Our point is the transmisisons were prepped for it ahead of time. We know the result other wise.
As many of you may already know, Bill is one of the biggest opponents against locked to locked shifting but that is what his customers needed and wanted for exhaust brake applications to enable towing their heavy trailers through the mountains. Before we ever released out smart controller we tested the system thousands of times and our customers have done this probably hundreds of thousands of times since being released.
That is the main reason DTT was the first company to develop and offer the billet input and output shafts for the diesels, he knew these factory parts wouldn’t take the punishment for long.
That is why the 4. 4 ratio lever was developed, the heavy-duty band strutt, was designed, the 2nd gear servo spring was designed. That is why he developed his own 3rd gear billet piston and why our 3rd gear returns system is different from the factory one. Pressure plates have been changed, and as Boldt’s wagon can tell you his truck was the first one to receive the newly designed servo that addresses ANY internal leakage in the 2nd gear servo even with a worn out case.
For those of you that think we are worried about exposing our trannys weaknesses look at our customer signatures and hp and towing weights. Their trannys are built tough, their internals to take a beating, but you tc and vb only guys no matter who’s customers you guys are , be careful of the downshifting . You guys don’t have the protection of the update kits. As for the bind up shifts, it does not matter who’s transmission you guys have it will not save you from destroying 3rd clutches or 2nd gear band failure if the bind up shift occurs.
So we are back to the same question of testing again? How does the average consumer test his or her transmission for bind up ? Other than what we told you guys how were you guys told to check it ? We have 2 years experience controlling the governor circuit and testing for bind up using calibration machines and pressure gauges. Bill showed me how to test, did ATS or Emjay show you guys how to check before adding the controller and after,or do you guys honestly still believe bind up can’t happen. For those of you that are pioneers good luck, for those of you that cannot afford to be wrong, be careful. I am sorry I have been so long winded but this is a summary of what I have been doing for the last while. We are not afraid of the unknown, it’s what we know that has us concerned.
Ultimately the decision is really yours to make and you have to do as you see fit but keep in mind bind up shifts not only happen on the upshift they can only happen on the downshift.
Its miller time guys, have a good New Year.
.
It is amazing how some guys can take Bill’s words and add a twist.
What a lot of you guys may not realize is that DTT has been testing and perfecting the governor circuit for over 2 years now. We had to make many changes to accommodate the smart controller. Specific component had to be designed to assist the transmission’s longevity.
DTT update kits come with a 4. 4 ratio lever that replaces the oem one of 3. 8. That is done because the 4. 4 ratio lever will give you more holding capacity than the factory 3. 8. If you guys want, do some homework and you will see that the Chrysler engineers must agree with us that the Dodge transmission needs more holding capacity for 2nd gear as they have changed the new 48RE transmissions to a 4. 2 ratio lever.
For example, if you you are take a 3rd gear drum that weighs over 7 lbs assembled turning at 1500 rpms and making it go to
0 rpms within . 01 of a second it is the second gear band that must take the drum and stop it from turning from 1500 rpms to 0 rpms and that was why DTT went to the 4. 4 ratio lever. On our testing we did 2500 rps - 0 rpms that is 3rd gear locked to 2nd gear locked.
It is not that we have not heard customers complain that they would like their transmissions to down shift into 2nd.
The smart controller for 2 years now has had the ability to force a 3 - 2 downshift and customers have been doing that successfully. The Smart controller takes a 3rd gear locked position and allows the driver to force the shift into 2nd gear while maintaining lockup. Our point is the transmisisons were prepped for it ahead of time. We know the result other wise.
As many of you may already know, Bill is one of the biggest opponents against locked to locked shifting but that is what his customers needed and wanted for exhaust brake applications to enable towing their heavy trailers through the mountains. Before we ever released out smart controller we tested the system thousands of times and our customers have done this probably hundreds of thousands of times since being released.
That is the main reason DTT was the first company to develop and offer the billet input and output shafts for the diesels, he knew these factory parts wouldn’t take the punishment for long.
That is why the 4. 4 ratio lever was developed, the heavy-duty band strutt, was designed, the 2nd gear servo spring was designed. That is why he developed his own 3rd gear billet piston and why our 3rd gear returns system is different from the factory one. Pressure plates have been changed, and as Boldt’s wagon can tell you his truck was the first one to receive the newly designed servo that addresses ANY internal leakage in the 2nd gear servo even with a worn out case.
For those of you that think we are worried about exposing our trannys weaknesses look at our customer signatures and hp and towing weights. Their trannys are built tough, their internals to take a beating, but you tc and vb only guys no matter who’s customers you guys are , be careful of the downshifting . You guys don’t have the protection of the update kits. As for the bind up shifts, it does not matter who’s transmission you guys have it will not save you from destroying 3rd clutches or 2nd gear band failure if the bind up shift occurs.
So we are back to the same question of testing again? How does the average consumer test his or her transmission for bind up ? Other than what we told you guys how were you guys told to check it ? We have 2 years experience controlling the governor circuit and testing for bind up using calibration machines and pressure gauges. Bill showed me how to test, did ATS or Emjay show you guys how to check before adding the controller and after,or do you guys honestly still believe bind up can’t happen. For those of you that are pioneers good luck, for those of you that cannot afford to be wrong, be careful. I am sorry I have been so long winded but this is a summary of what I have been doing for the last while. We are not afraid of the unknown, it’s what we know that has us concerned.
Ultimately the decision is really yours to make and you have to do as you see fit but keep in mind bind up shifts not only happen on the upshift they can only happen on the downshift.
Its miller time guys, have a good New Year.
.
Originally posted by Shovelhead
Pitt Bull, the difference is I have an auto transmission.
I'm still trying to decide which way to go.
Maybe I'll just have to follow your lead and chuck the auto for a 6 speed.
I know where your coming from. My 2000 3500QC 4x4 was an automatic. I knew that long term I was going to have to spend $3-4,000 to upgrade that automatic. I got lucky and got a deal on the 6 speed truck I wanted from the beginning. I also would not want to blow up a $3,000 transmission upgrade. Someone else would have to do the beta testing
Good luck on your decision, I know it's not easy.
Thanks Stefan,
All good information.
More stuff to ponder... ... . dang, I need another beer.
I'll have to attempt to re-read all this stuff tomorrow.
Happy New year to you and your folks.
All good information.
More stuff to ponder... ... . dang, I need another beer.
I'll have to attempt to re-read all this stuff tomorrow.
Happy New year to you and your folks.
And what is your definition of "does not work"
If you say it is going to ruin the transmission and you won't warrant it, does that mean it does work? 
Sounds like a Bill Clinton word smithing concern. ATS is saying it will work and is backing it up with their warranty. DTT is saying it won't work, and is saying if you use it on a DTT transmission, it is without warranty coverage. Now some members are buying these units and will be running them on "their" transmissions. I guess we will see who is right.GLASMITHS
Factory 1999 and earlier Dodges came with 52-56 psi base idle pressure, 90-105 psi wide open throttle unlocked based on kick down cable adjustment.
The 4. 4 ratio lever gives 2nd gear more holding capacity than a 3. 3 ratio lever with the same pressures. Its a simple case of having more mechanical advantage.
If ATS is now running the same pressures as DTT when they were saying they did not need to previously you would have to ask them.
Factory 1999 and earlier Dodges came with 52-56 psi base idle pressure, 90-105 psi wide open throttle unlocked based on kick down cable adjustment.
The 4. 4 ratio lever gives 2nd gear more holding capacity than a 3. 3 ratio lever with the same pressures. Its a simple case of having more mechanical advantage.
If ATS is now running the same pressures as DTT when they were saying they did not need to previously you would have to ask them.
Pit Bull - I missed where DTT said the Emjay unit "does not work".
It appears there are those of you that think it is DTT’s responsibility to prove or disprove the Emjay controller. Personally I am pleased that there is so much confidence in the folks that built my transmission, that’s why I went with DTT.
The following is my understanding:
DTT has concerns with potential problems, due to at least one feature of the Emjay unit. Without testing the Emjay unit, how would DTT know for sure there is a problem? DTT has explained what the potential problem is, and its result. DTT also pointed out that the potential problem applied to all 47RE transmissions.
If DTT is in error, I think Emjay or ATS should explain why. The silence from Emjay and/or ATS is suspect to me.
Should DTT buy an Emjay controller and all other controllers to prove they work? NO! DTT is in the business of selling transmissions. DTT has a controller that they sell and overall are satisfied with. DTT says they would like to see a better controller and they do not like the profit margin of their own. They said they would like to get out of the controller business. They even expressed interest in the Emjay unit.
Emjay is a new (to them) product looking for a market. Respectfully, I think it is their responsibility to prove their product. Provide them to transmission builders for testing. Start with the builder with the greatest market potential for controller sales.
Personally, I don’t think AMCO or that type of transmission shop would be that big of a controller market.
I bet with a greater effort to communicate Emjay and DTT working together could develop an outstanding controller. I guess now we will never know.
Wayne
It appears there are those of you that think it is DTT’s responsibility to prove or disprove the Emjay controller. Personally I am pleased that there is so much confidence in the folks that built my transmission, that’s why I went with DTT.
The following is my understanding:
DTT has concerns with potential problems, due to at least one feature of the Emjay unit. Without testing the Emjay unit, how would DTT know for sure there is a problem? DTT has explained what the potential problem is, and its result. DTT also pointed out that the potential problem applied to all 47RE transmissions.
If DTT is in error, I think Emjay or ATS should explain why. The silence from Emjay and/or ATS is suspect to me.
Should DTT buy an Emjay controller and all other controllers to prove they work? NO! DTT is in the business of selling transmissions. DTT has a controller that they sell and overall are satisfied with. DTT says they would like to see a better controller and they do not like the profit margin of their own. They said they would like to get out of the controller business. They even expressed interest in the Emjay unit.
Emjay is a new (to them) product looking for a market. Respectfully, I think it is their responsibility to prove their product. Provide them to transmission builders for testing. Start with the builder with the greatest market potential for controller sales.
Personally, I don’t think AMCO or that type of transmission shop would be that big of a controller market.
I bet with a greater effort to communicate Emjay and DTT working together could develop an outstanding controller. I guess now we will never know.
Wayne
DTT Questions -- Re-post
Since DTT has not answered the questions that I posted nearly two weeks ago regarding bind-up, I have re-posted them starting with the fourth paragraph below. Stefan, please provide answers to as many of those questions as you can.
The only definitive answer that I have read so far is that dropping the governor pressure 40 PSI causes "severe bind up". Zero governor pressure is attained by applying the maximum current through the governor pressure solenoid. Since the PCM controls governor solenoid current, it would immediately detect such a large disparity, and go into limp mode. The PCM achieves limp mode by removing all power to the transmission by opening the trans relay. That causes max governor pressure (zero governor solenoid current) and no lockup or OD. The governor pressure is inversely proportional to the current through the governor solenoid, so zero current = max pressure, zero pressure = max current.
The Strategy controller does not intercept or monitor the governor solenoid current, so it cannot change the current through it. The Strategy controller does not intercept or monitor the governor pressure sensor signal, either. The Strategy controller varies the excitation voltage to the governor pressure sensor, which has the effect of scaling the governor pressure sensor output by as much as +/- 20% if desired. Adding a resistor to the governor pressure excitation voltage lead does the same thing, the difference is that the Strategy controller adjusts the voltage dynamically based on throttle position and/or speed. Emjay Engineering LLC has a patent pending on this technology. You still retain the full diagnostic protection provided by the PCM because the closed loop comprised of the governor pressure solenoid and governor pressure sensor remains intact.
Anyway, here's the questions. In order to determine whether a bind-up is even possible with a PCM controlling the transmission, we need to know the various transmission parameters when a bind-up is triggered using your test box. Some parameters may not be measurable without considerable instrumentation, but where practical, provide:
1. Manual valve position, and whether it is accurately located in its detent
2. State of the following transmission clutches and bands:
a) Front clutch
b) Front Band
c) Rear Clutch
d) Rear Band
e) Overrun Clutch
3. State of the following overdrive clutches:
a) Overdrive Clutch
b) Direct Clutch
c) Overrun Clutch
4. The following pressures at bind up:
a) Rear servo
b) Governor
c) Accumulator
d) Overdrive Clutch
5. Current measured through the governor solenoid
6. Voltage at the signal (output) lead of governor pressure sensor
7. State of the TCC and OD solenoids
8. Position of the remaining valves in the valve body:
a) Shuttle Valve
b) 1-2 Shift control valve
c) Throttle Valve
d) Kickdown Valve
e) Boost Valve
f) L/U switch valve
g) 3-4 Quick fill valve
h) 3-4 timing valve
i) 3-4 shift valve
j) Lockup valve
k) Lockup timing valve
l) Accumulator
9. Engine RPM
Since DTT has not answered the questions that I posted nearly two weeks ago regarding bind-up, I have re-posted them starting with the fourth paragraph below. Stefan, please provide answers to as many of those questions as you can.
The only definitive answer that I have read so far is that dropping the governor pressure 40 PSI causes "severe bind up". Zero governor pressure is attained by applying the maximum current through the governor pressure solenoid. Since the PCM controls governor solenoid current, it would immediately detect such a large disparity, and go into limp mode. The PCM achieves limp mode by removing all power to the transmission by opening the trans relay. That causes max governor pressure (zero governor solenoid current) and no lockup or OD. The governor pressure is inversely proportional to the current through the governor solenoid, so zero current = max pressure, zero pressure = max current.
The Strategy controller does not intercept or monitor the governor solenoid current, so it cannot change the current through it. The Strategy controller does not intercept or monitor the governor pressure sensor signal, either. The Strategy controller varies the excitation voltage to the governor pressure sensor, which has the effect of scaling the governor pressure sensor output by as much as +/- 20% if desired. Adding a resistor to the governor pressure excitation voltage lead does the same thing, the difference is that the Strategy controller adjusts the voltage dynamically based on throttle position and/or speed. Emjay Engineering LLC has a patent pending on this technology. You still retain the full diagnostic protection provided by the PCM because the closed loop comprised of the governor pressure solenoid and governor pressure sensor remains intact.
Anyway, here's the questions. In order to determine whether a bind-up is even possible with a PCM controlling the transmission, we need to know the various transmission parameters when a bind-up is triggered using your test box. Some parameters may not be measurable without considerable instrumentation, but where practical, provide:
1. Manual valve position, and whether it is accurately located in its detent
2. State of the following transmission clutches and bands:
a) Front clutch
b) Front Band
c) Rear Clutch
d) Rear Band
e) Overrun Clutch
3. State of the following overdrive clutches:
a) Overdrive Clutch
b) Direct Clutch
c) Overrun Clutch
4. The following pressures at bind up:
a) Rear servo
b) Governor
c) Accumulator
d) Overdrive Clutch
5. Current measured through the governor solenoid
6. Voltage at the signal (output) lead of governor pressure sensor
7. State of the TCC and OD solenoids
8. Position of the remaining valves in the valve body:
a) Shuttle Valve
b) 1-2 Shift control valve
c) Throttle Valve
d) Kickdown Valve
e) Boost Valve
f) L/U switch valve
g) 3-4 Quick fill valve
h) 3-4 timing valve
i) 3-4 shift valve
j) Lockup valve
k) Lockup timing valve
l) Accumulator
9. Engine RPM
Last edited:
At the request of Shanti Kondolay, the question is now on the DTT site. See:
http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=866#866
http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=866#866
Last edited:
No, I just do what the ladies ask. Well trained by my wife.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
