Engine Oil in Radiator CASE 504BD Engine

[Rick Comenzo]

Hello, hoping an expert can chime in here with some suggestions. Case front end loader, radiator became overfilled with engine oil. Flushed/drained radiator and block,bypassed oil cooler on the engine and transmission oil cooler in the radiator. antifreeze was mixed to -27 degrees before draining, I do not believe it was a cold weather freezing problem. engine restarted and run under load for 45 minutes, engine oil returned to the radiator. Any suggestions, no visible problems/leaks, no antifreeze in the engine oil, normal exhaust and no weak/dead cylinders. I am thinking head gasket, cracked block or one of the 3 cylinder heads might be cracked. Or could a cylinder liner have let go?, this is a recon engine from Case with less than 1000 hours since replacement. Any suggestions/comments . Thanks in advance Rick.

 

[JFinke]

It's not a liner. If a sleave were bad the water would be in the oil or cylinder. To get oil in the water it has to be a leaking in from a pressurized source. I doubt it's a crack either, as they will usually put exhaust into the water. My guess would be that it's a head gasket. How much oil is in the radiator, and is it missing the same amount in the crankcase? Jake

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

Check the oil cooler... . probably have a crack in it. Also check Trans. cooler too



Oil is at a higher pressure than the coolant pressure. sooo any leak in here will push oil into the cooling system. Oil Cooler cores are notorious for this when they fail.



oh... . never mind... . read the post further. I didnt know you could bypass the oil cooler (on the coolant side). Then again Im more familiar with the integral type (in block) coolers.



Case..... is it a Cummins/CDC 4 or 6 cylinder by chance?

 

[Rick Comenzo]

Engine Oil in Cooling System Case 504 BD

Thanks for the replies. I siphoned near a gallon of engine oil from the radiator, it was a slimy mess, and all of the coolant hoses naturally are now soft, and will fail soon. I am unable to determine if engine oil is missing, several operators had run the loader prior to a problem arising, and stated engine oil was at the correct level. I rechecked the engine oil after the cooling system flush and the crankcase appears overfilled slightly. The loader is now out of service awaiting a decision as to where it will be repaired(will not fit inside my shop/work) building. Also awaiting the decision ... the cost , $6800 for a replacement recon engine with the old engine for the core $8600 no core. This engine is an inline 6 Bosch in line injection pump, non turboed, laid out the same as our B engines, with 3 paired cylinder heads, I think this is a Cummins industrial type engine. I was thinking of trying to pressurize the crankcase(blocking the breather tube) etc. , pulling the thermostats and see if any leaks can be heard or seen. Likely I will need to tear down this engine, and your suggestions are appreciated, Thanks Rick.

 

[JUeckert]

rick,it sounds like you have the 8. 3 cummins in your case. any way ,it sounds very likely that the oil cooler has failed. hope so!

 

[QRTRHRS]

Case had that 504 in a half dozon or so configurations in farm tractors. You can easily find them being scrapped for parts. Maybe you can pick up a used engine? My 82' 504 is rated 108 HP and at 4000 hours, runs like a champ.

 

[JFinke]

The 8. 3C series only has one cylinder head. He has an old cummins but probably a case engine with the three heads. The 855's/N14 have three heads but I've never seen one in a loader, and the oil coolers are fed through the castings. Unless you cleaned the cooling system for several hours and used soap it will get oil in the top tank of the radiator for the next several hundred hours. If you didn't loose any oil since blocking the cooler and don't have any water in the oil I would guess it's the cooler. If you crack the drain plug after it sit's for several hours it should drain the antifreeze out unless it's mixed with the oil, in which case the oil will look like carmel syrup. The only time a cooler will leak into the crankcase is when the motor is off and the cooling system is pressurized. If you pressurize the crankcase you WILL blow the front and rear oil seals out of the motor before anything else happens. Now that you have run it with the oil collers disconnected blow air through them and see if you have a bunch of oil in the water side.



I did an overhaul once for a customer because the engine was leaking oil into the radiator. I couldn't find the leak, but he said inframe it anyways. Found out later that his son saw it was low on oil and topped off the radiator. Would've been easy to figure out but between oil changes he uses used oil out of his big trucks on the little farm tractors after he runs it through a coffee filter. The few dollars he saved by doing this were not much compared to the $3500. 00 inframe. Jake

 

[bmoeller]

The 504 and 8. 3 engines are different animals. W20 wheel loader, by chance?

 

[Rick Comenzo]

Oil in Radiator

Thank you for all the suggestions, and yes this engine is in a W20c loader. When i get back to work Tuesday, I will dig deeper into this problem as per your recommendations. I was considering pressurizing the crankcase with regulated air at a very low pressure less than 4 psi, but will steer clear if u think will blow out the seals. I had blown compressed air thru both coolers, trand fluid came out of the radiator cooler, and clean antifreeze came out of the block mounted water cooler under the oil filter. Not likely that an operator added engine oil to the radiator, the access to the radiator is behind a locked grille, and I have the key lol. Thanks again, i'll update as things progress Rick.

 

[MCherry]

Please keep on updating this thread.



I have an old W 24c wheel loader that has the 504 engine. So far I haven't seen this problem, but it could happen anytime on old equipment and this is good info to know.



I'm not certain the Allison transmission is working correctly; if anyone has experience with these transmissions and would be willing to answer emails about this, please respond and I'll pm you.

 

[bmoeller]

MCherry, what do you need to know? I have limited knowledge of the Allisons, but may be able to answer a question or two. I'll give it shot, if I can.

 

[jrobinson2]

I would bet the head gasket is leaking from one of the rocker arm oil feeds to a coolant passage. I've got a 215HP 504BDT that came out of a W-36 thats partialy dissasembled, if it ever quits raining I'll go look and see if there are pressurized oil and coolant passages close to each other. The 504 in the '70s case equipment is not a Cummins engine at all, I am sure it's a case engine, the 8. 3 cummins replaced it in the early '80s.



MCherry

I ran and worked on several W-24C's and a W-24B through the late '80s and am currently running a W-36, whats it doing that doesn't seem right?



Jared

 

[QRTRHRS]

The 504 in the '70s case equipment is not a Cummins engine at all, I am sure it's a case engine, the 8. 3 cummins replaced it in the early '80s. Jared

The 504 was built by Consolidated Diesel which was/is a joint Case/Cummins venture.

 

[MCherry]

My W 24C wheel loader has an Allison TT 2421 transmission, according to the tag on the side of the trans. It can be shifted into Rev, neutral, first or second "range". The operator's manual says it should have two speeds in each range, shifting automatically.



The operators manual shows the following ground speeds:



low range forward, 1st 2. 6 miles per hour

2nd 6. 5 miles per hour

high range forward, 3rd 11. 4 miles per hour

4th 22. 2 miles per hour



In low range, I'm seeing more or less 6 miles per hour, and in high range, 11 or 12 miles per hour. Based on the speeds listed in the manual, the transmission seems to be producing low range 2nd and high range 3rd.



The service manager at the local Case dealer, who says he used to work on these machines when he was a field tech. , says it's odd to have 1st high and second low - you would expect 1st low and second low, or first high and second high. That seems logical to me too, but I don't know anything about these transmissions.



If it will shift up to second in low range, shouldn't it shift up to fourth in high range? Actually, if it ends up that I can't get fourth, that's ok. That's faster than I want to travel the machine anyway.



The thing I'm really concerned about is this: I'd really like to know if I'm getting low range first gear, or if I'm operating all the time in low range second gear.



Low range first gear is where the power is. I don't want to be abusing the machine by pushing into a heavy load in second, when it should be in first.



Is there a way to check if low range 1st is engaging? Or since I seem to have low range second, does that mean low range first has got to be working?

 

[jrobinson2]

The 504 was built by Consolidated Diesel which was/is a joint Case/Cummins venture.

I dont think so (But I've been wrong before )

My understanding is that the Case 504B dates to the mid '60s, long before the consolidated partnership. Conslidated diesel was formed in the late '70s and developed the 6C8. 3, also a 504 cid engine, basicly to replace the case built 504B. I replaced the 504B in my W-36 loader with a 6cta8. 3 Cummins/Consolidated and there is nothing even remotely the same about the two engines. I dont know when Case changed over to the new engines but if your 504 has three heads its the old Case engine, if its got one head its the 6C8. 3

As mentioned above I have been wrong before



Jared

 

[jrobinson2]

MCherry, I'm going on 15 year old memory here but...

I am quite sure the trans in the W-24s is a 2 speed forward and 1 speed reverse with a 2 stage torque converter, the converter is done strictly with fluid flow and dual stators, no clutches or gears so there isn't really a shift within ranges, more like a slight surge as the rpms start to get close on the input and output of the converter. It seems to me like it would almost instantly go to the high rpm low torque mode in low if it was not pushing something. We ran one W-24B and three W-24Cs and my brother and I don't recall any of them going faster than about 15 mph, in high gear you could feel the converter change as the speed increased and about that time the thing would start bouncing so bad you needed to let off and start over.



Jared

 

[Rick Comenzo]

Oil in Cooling System Case 504BD

Thanks for the information, this Case is from the late 80's. Worked today, repressurized the oil coolers(both bypassed), no leakage detected. I work for a governmental agency, the decision to disassemble the engine is on hold, and the temperatures are in the 30's with snow/sleet falling , making outdoor work more difficult. I'll advise when some progress occurs Rick.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I dont think so (But I've been wrong before )

My understanding is that the Case 504B dates to the mid '60s, long before the consolidated partnership. Conslidated diesel was formed in the late '70s and developed the 6C8. 3, also a 504 cid engine, basicly to replace the case built 504B. I replaced the 504B in my W-36 loader with a 6cta8. 3 Cummins/Consolidated and there is nothing even remotely the same about the two engines. I dont know when Case changed over to the new engines but if your 504 has three heads its the old Case engine, if its got one head its the 6C8. 3

As mentioned above I have been wrong before



Jared

Your right, I am wrong. The 504 is a pure Case engine. Anyway, I thought Consolidated was formed in 1981?



I don't know if the 504 was derived from earlier versions but according to the Intertec used tractor guide, it shows up in 1969 and was available through 1989. Then in 1990 a 505 is listed. I don't know anything about that version.

 

[MCherry]

JRobinson2 --



Thanks for the reply. Iamb sure your memory is correct. My machine has two ranges on the shift lever.



No matter which one I use, I have never felt any sort of shift or surge. That's what first got me worried - I figured I should feel a definite shift, but it's now clear that it doesn't work that way. I'll try to pay better attention and see if I can feel any kind of surge or other change.



I don't really want to go all that fast with this beast; my question about whether the trans is working correctly is just because I don't want to damage the transmission by pushing into a heavy load thinking I"hm in 1st/low, when really it's not.

 

[jrobinson2]

I thought Consolidated was formed in 1981?



I don't know if the 504 was derived from earlier versions but according to the Intertec used tractor guide, it shows up in 1969 and was available through 1989. Then in 1990 a 505 is listed. I don't know anything about that version.

You're probably right about 1981 for consolidated and '69 for the 504B, I was being very broad with the dates because I don't know the exact years, only the general age of the machines I have seen and worked on I had thought consolidated was formed in '79 and started producing engines in '81?? I am a bit surprised they ran the 504 clear to '89 , the 504's have always treated me very well. The 505 may be the Case IH designation for the 6C8. 3??



Jared