Excessive Fuel in Engine Oil - 6.7 Engine

[RGrizzle]

the 6. 7 is junk no good

do you have one ?? have you driven one ??? or are you just spouting off at the mouth about something you know nothing about ???? i like mine .

 

[RGrizzle]

I think for the people who use their trucks on longhaul, like EB above, they will do great, at least for the first 300K or so.



For those who use them as grocery getters, I think they will have lots of problems, and it's probably better now to buy a hemi, and keep the money, and spare yourself the trouble of the 6. 7.

i drive mine on numerous short trips regularly and have had no problems.

 

[sag2]

It would be nice if it could be explained how the pickup knows that 7% fuel is in the crank case. I chanded my oil last time when the light came on an had just a trace of fuel in oil(according to Blackstone). I understand that there are more parameters than this but it is not taking samples its self. I am still going for extended intervals with testing. Edit. I remember there being a post on here about 4% being the acceptable level. Someone please let me know is acceptable or not. I guess 7% is it if that is what starscan tech said.

The truck has no idea that it is at 7%. An algorithm is a mathematical formula that guesses when the fuel saturation reaches 4%. That is why you need to report to the dealer that if you sampled your oil when the oil change light came on and it was significantly different than 4%. Then they can report back to STAR so Cummins can make adjustments to the algorithm.

 

[jimnance]

From the posts here it seems that there may be a relationship with how the truck is driven and fuel dilution. Since Courierdog reports little fuel dilution but high engine utilization I theorize the dilution is caused in part by the DPF regen process. An engine that is under high load (high EGT) should expect fewer regen cycles since the EGT's keep the soot build up in the DPF down.



As I understand it, the regen involves extra fuel being injected during the exhaust stroke to provide the extra heat the DPF needs to regen. Some fuel is certain to escape by the rings under any circumstance. However, during normal combustion it should be very small since the fuel is burning at the combution event. In this case, during regen, raw fuel is being injected into the engine during a non-combution event. Surely a greater amount of fuel will bypass the rings under this circumstance.



As far as ill effects caused by fuel dilution, I'm sure no good can come of it. The only question is how serious is the issue. I suspect that the oil change light is a method to help insure that fuel dilution does not exceed an excessive level. How well it succeeds in that measure is a question.



Since high utilization engines seem to require less frequent oil changes my guess is that the oil change alert light is a reasonable predictor of when oil dilution has reached unsatisfactory level.



All of this makes me more convinced that removal of the DPF (while retaining the sensor) will enhance economy and the reliability of the engine. I also think a mild power enhancement box that advances fuel timing will help as well.



Our area does not utilize emissions testing for diesels and are not expected to do so for the foreseeable future so inspections are not an issue for me. Warrantee is an issue, so I will wait a bit for these enhancements to see how things shake out.

 

[MLee]

Just a thought, And I am sure this has been considered, but, could this be because of the colder weather and shorter runs, the engine not coming up to engine operating tempetures, and driving till the contamination is eliminated? longer warm up times before driving? These are all contibuting factors to diluted crank case oil. Which is your situation?

These trucks are machines to work and be used as such, and are not happy with the daley commute to the store and back unless its thirty miles round trip.

They can not be babied.

just my pennies worth

Marv.

 

[Garlic]

Mine is used for daily commute as well as towing 11K. I am into the 2nd oil change at 8200 miles and sent an oil sample off. Should hear back in a few days. I have not noticed any fuel smell or high oil level. You could have a D'max that will fill the crankcase full of raw fuel in a few miles though.

 

[Frank T]

Update Details from Chrysler:

After complete diagnostics on the engine yesterday, STAR determined that because I'm not getting the engine hot enough more frequent hard regenerations on the DPF are occurring. That is to say that my driving habits being local in general and not pulling a heavy trailer or load don't heat up the engine so the DPF is more likely to have frequent build up of soot. So, the hard regens occur more frequently.



End result of the hard regens are fuel will enter the crank when it is introduced on the exhaust stroke of the engine. The more regens, the more fuel in the crank. I'd imagine that this is problem that Cummins doesn't want to admit too at this point with these new engines/systems.



Last, Chrysler claims that if one changes the oil when the overhead tells you, no harm will result from the fuel in the crank (diesel is a lubricant unlike gasoline and the engine can handle 7% with no damage). HOWEVER, if you ignore this message and don't change the oil, you will harm the engine!



I gather that this is our reality at this time and unless progress is made in the emission process, we are paying the price for cleaner air in the US.



Frank T

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

That is pretty amazing. If that much fuel is getting by the rings and going into the oil that would be a lot of cylinder washdown going on! Fuel in the oil is only half the concern IMO!



Dodge would have been smarter running a dedicated fuel line to the DPF like some manufacturers do, then it would save dumping raw fuel into the engine to blow downstream into the DPF.

 

[NBoyd]

When the Message comes on to change the Oil, how long do we have before we should change it. Like most I drive long distances for work, and If I am on a 1000 Mile round trip I don't want to go hunting for a place to change my oil just because the computer decides 30 miles into the trip its time to change.



Nathan

 

[betterthanstock]

I don't know whether the 6. 7 still has the fake oil pressure switch/guage that only detects whether oil pressure is above 6 psi. Maybe an oil pressure gage, even one mounted outside in one of the oil gallery plugs, can be used as an indicator of oil dilution.

 

[champspa]

after reading what others are getting in there oil samples I realize that I'm not loyal enough to own a 6. 7 the long term would bother me to much. Oh well it's a great looking and I'll bet great pulling with that 6 auto .

 

[sag2]

From the posts here it seems that there may be a relationship with how the truck is driven and fuel dilution. Since Courierdog reports little fuel dilution but high engine utilization I theorize the dilution is caused in part by the DPF regen process. An engine that is under high load (high EGT) should expect fewer regen cycles since the EGT's keep the soot build up in the DPF down.



As I understand it, the regen involves extra fuel being injected during the exhaust stroke to provide the extra heat the DPF needs to regen. Some fuel is certain to escape by the rings under any circumstance. However, during normal combustion it should be very small since the fuel is burning at the combution event. In this case, during regen, raw fuel is being injected into the engine during a non-combution event. Surely a greater amount of fuel will bypass the rings under this circumstance.



As far as ill effects caused by fuel dilution, I'm sure no good can come of it. The only question is how serious is the issue. I suspect that the oil change light is a method to help insure that fuel dilution does not exceed an excessive level. How well it succeeds in that measure is a question.



Since high utilization engines seem to require less frequent oil changes my guess is that the oil change alert light is a reasonable predictor of when oil dilution has reached unsatisfactory level.



All of this makes me more convinced that removal of the DPF (while retaining the sensor) will enhance economy and the reliability of the engine. I also think a mild power enhancement box that advances fuel timing will help as well.



Our area does not utilize emissions testing for diesels and are not expected to do so for the foreseeable future so inspections are not an issue for me. Warrantee is an issue, so I will wait a bit for these enhancements to see how things shake out.

jimnance, you make some very good observations, but;



1. The ECM will have no idea you removed it, so that would have no effect on the fuel being injected on the exhaust stroke, thus no change in dilution.

2. The oil change reminder light is there for a specific purpose. To remind the driver the oil change is needed based on THE TRUCKS duty cycle. Failure to heed the warning could result in engine damage.

3. Fuel dilution in the oil is not a problem if it does not exceed the limits set in the program. Again, you can choose to ignore it, but you’re just risking potential damage. I would not worry at all if you follow the manufacturer’s recommendations.

4. The reality is here that emissions have to be reduced, and Cummins and Dodge are not going to risk $10,000 short block replacements if they thought driving them normally and following the maintenance recommendations would compromise the engine life. This isn't a 12 valve anymore, and we have to change with the times. I don't recall that there is a law that because it used to be the way it was, means it has to be that way forever.



Trust that corporate America would rather do things the way they want, and not the way some law or regulation said they had to. You can also bet that the costs of all that emission equipment was not recouped by the minimal price increase of the 6. 7. In the end you still have to remain competitive.

 

[jimnance]

jimnance, you make some very good observations, but;



1. The ECM will have no idea you removed it, so that would have no effect on the fuel being injected on the exhaust stroke, thus no change in dilution.

2. The oil change reminder light is there for a specific purpose. To remind the driver the oil change is needed based on THE TRUCKS duty cycle. Failure to heed the warning could result in engine damage.

3. Fuel dilution in the oil is not a problem if it does not exceed the limits set in the program. Again, you can choose to ignore it, but you’re just risking potential damage. I would not worry at all if you follow the manufacturer’s recommendations.

4. The reality is here that emissions have to be reduced, and Cummins and Dodge are not going to risk $10,000 short block replacements if they thought driving them normally and following the maintenance recommendations would compromise the engine life. This isn't a 12 valve anymore, and we have to change with the times. I don't recall that there is a law that because it used to be the way it was, means it has to be that way forever.



Trust that corporate America would rather do things the way they want, and not the way some law or regulation said they had to. You can also bet that the costs of all that emission equipment was not recouped by the minimal price increase of the 6. 7. In the end you still have to remain competitive.

My understanding of the regen was that the ECM would trigger an event if excessive backpressure was sensed in the DPF, or if none was sensed after a period of time a regen would be triggered. However, the frequency of regens would be reduced if no backpressure was detected.



I'm not suggesting that the oil change light be ignored! Just suggesting that duty cycle / oil dilution / oil change interval are inter-related. When the light goes on I get the oil change done immediately

 

[superdave]

I guess I am one of these "numbnuts" who reads the owners manual. One of the things I have noticed is the recommendation in the manual that to acheive maximum engine life and effeciency, you should pull a load, either a trailer or a load in the bed, I guess, for the first 6000 miles... BUT there is CAUTION right beside it that state DO NOT pull a load for the first 500 miles. Cummins says the load causes better run in.

 

[DieselLady]

jimnance, you make some very good observations, but;

1. The ECM will have no idea you removed it, so that would have no effect on the fuel being injected on the exhaust stroke, thus no change in dilution.
2. The oil change reminder light is there for a specific purpose. To remind the driver the oil change is needed based on THE TRUCKS duty cycle. Failure to heed the warning could result in engine damage.
3. Fuel dilution in the oil is not a problem if it does not exceed the limits set in the program. Again, you can choose to ignore it, but you're just risking potential damage. I would not worry at all if you follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
4. The reality is here that emissions have to be reduced, and Cummins and Dodge are not going to risk $10,000 short block replacements if they thought driving them normally and following the maintenance recommendations would compromise the engine life. This isn't a 12 valve anymore, and we have to change with the times. I don't recall that there is a law that because it used to be the way it was, means it has to be that way forever.

Trust that corporate America would rather do things the way they want, and not the way some law or regulation said they had to. You can also bet that the costs of all that emission equipment was not recouped by the minimal price increase of the 6. 7. In the end you still have to remain competitive.

1. When you remove the DPF and CAT, and disconnect the sensors the ECM knows something is wrong and does not regen. BUT it will derate the engine after about 50-100 miles. I know this from experience.
2. My experience with most of the folks that buy these trucks, is that they don't need to be reminded to change their oil. Dishing out almost $60k for a new vehicle is reminder enough for me to keep an eye on it and protect my investment. I am much more inclined to think it is their way of covering there ***** for a leaky injector issue. I can hardly believe that they are not checking injectors to confirm that this isn't the problem, Just automaticly assume it is from the REGEN events.
3. If as you say, fuel dilution in the oil is not a problem if I follow the manuf recommendations, than which recommendation should I follow. They say it is recommended at 7500 miles but then they have the computer tell you 3000 miles. And if it is not problem,,, then why did GM double their manufacturer warranty on the engine when they had this issue with leaky injectors back in 02 and 03. Are there engineers not as smart as Dodges. Sorry but I don't believe it.
4. Emissions have been reduced. But for the sake of a little soot, that will fall to the ground like dust, We have reduced our fuel economy by 7mpg. Now where is the sense in that. How can getting 30% less fuel economy be good for the enviroment?????? Hhhhuuuuummmmm?????
P. S. If you are so concerned about the enviroment, go buy a prius. They run off of gas and electric, which as you know, here is Calif we produce electricity by burning Natural GAS. Another natural resource that we could be saviing for heating homes etc.
There is always a trade off, and quite frankly I am getting sick of paying the price for all the enviro wackos in this state. You want to clean up the planet, go overseas where they send all the cars that won't come close to passing our laws. RANT OVER!!!!

 

[PaulBarker]

you said it best, diesellady,
thats why my 6. 7 doesnt regen, it doesnt have a dpf nor the 2 cats any more. now i am wondering if the fuel in the engine will stop. a few days after each oil change you can see the oil rising.

 

[sag2]

2. My experience with most of the folks that buy these trucks, is that they don't need to be reminded to change their oil. Dishing out almost $60k for a new vehicle is reminder enough for me to keep an eye on it and protect my investment. I am much more inclined to think it is their way of covering there ***** for a leaky injector issue. I can hardly believe that they are not checking injectors to confirm that this isn't the problem, Just automaticly assume it is from the REGEN events.

3. If as you say, fuel dilution in the oil is not a problem if I follow the manuf recommendations, than which recommendation should I follow. They say it is recommended at 7500 miles but then they have the computer tell you 3000 miles. And if it is not problem,,, then why did GM double their manufacturer warranty on the engine when they had this issue with leaky injectors back in 02 and 03. Are there engineers not as smart as Dodges. Sorry but I don't believe it.

The oil change light is driven off an algorithm, not off any sensor in the oil pan, so there is no way to blame it for covering up for an injector that is leaking. And so far the oil change light has been consistent with the fuel dilution recorded in oil samples. The 6. 7 injector is essentially the same as a 5. 9, so why would they be leaking all of a sudden?



I again stand by my statement that fuel dilution is not a problem if not exceeded. Diesel is a pretty good lube as compared to other contaminants that can cause serious damage. GM might have doubled the warranty (I have no knowledge they did) because just as the few 5. 9 injectors that cracked and leaked, they filled the crankcase with diesel, a far cry from 4-7% from regeneration events.



And from what I can tell, the 2010 diesel emissions standards were set to control particulates (DPF), Sulfur (ULSD), and NOx (EGR), not to increase fuel economy. The industry HAS to meet those standards before they can even start to address the other issues.

 

[PaulBarker]

diesel not a good lube, ULSD is no where close to as good as LSD. LSD is not a good Lube. Where are you getting your information. DID you stay at a Holiday Inn Express, Cause that doesn't work.
do you know for a fact that 7% fuel in the oil is a safe number. IF that is safe way havent't the dodge techs known about this when i asked them. Everyone told me i was crazy. There is not suppose to be fuel in the oil. They have no idea that during regen diesel will collect in the oil. Hell i guess it is so safe there is no need to tell any service department about it.

 

[DieselLady]

you said it best, diesellady,

thats why my 6. 7 doesnt regen, it doesnt have a dpf nor the 2 cats any more. now i am wondering if the fuel in the engine will stop. a few days after each oil change you can see the oil rising.

Well Shoot Howdy!!! Ya mean it isn't regenerating and it STILL has fuel in the oil. How about that!!!! Pardon my sarcasm. :--)

 

[DieselLady]

The 6. 7 injector is essentially the same as a 5. 9, so why would they be leaking all of a sudden?





And from what I can tell, the 2010 diesel emissions standards were set to control particulates (DPF), Sulfur (ULSD), and NOx (EGR), not to increase fuel economy. The industry HAS to meet those standards before they can even start to address the other issues.

1. The 5. 9s do have the same problem. Just not as much because they don't have as many injection events.



2. Regarding your last statement... ... WHY! Why do they have to meet these standards before they can start to address fuel economy. I thought it was all about the environment! Isn't saving fuel all about the environment or is the Pirus just to make everyone feel good about them selves. I am not trying to be sarcastic here, I just think this is an honest Question. So please tell me WHY!.