Experienced 5.9 rebuiler input for 04.5

[S.Morris]

Some background: my sons 04. 5 3500 used in commercial emergency road service suffered a failed injector on #6 which led to breaking rings on this cyl.



Without going into a lot of issues leading up to this... ..... the engine has now been rebuilt. I am relaying second hand info as have not seen or heard completed engine.



Engine was pulled and disassembled by jouneyman mech with 25yrs doing engines only in class 8 trucks. A very meticulous guy. But first time ever doing a 5. 9 in a "little truck".



Block was sent to large machine shop experienced in such things to have dry sleeves replaced on # 6 and #2 cyl. Cam bearings replaced and cyl honed.



Engine reassembled with two new pistons /pins and rings on all 6 holes. New rod and main brgs/seals etc/and injectors... .

2 ISSUES:



On start up engine runs smooth and tight BUT has a lot of blowby. Enough to pop oil filler cap off if it is just set over fill hole without screwing in. How much blowby will new rings unseated have?? Drove truck a bit to seat rings some. This did lessen amount of blowby but still seems a lot.



Second thing which makes reluctant to drive ... ... Engine has a whine that you can hear in exhaust and engine bay but is rpm related and NOT the turbo. It sounds almost like a belt starting to slip at low rpm but also maybe gear whine type of sound. Tech who is doing job and shop full of mechanics are stumped as to what noise is? This is not about blaming someone/but finding answers...



AS of tonight, have tried running with out serp belt... ... . no change in noise.



Has anyone ever experienced this and can say... ... . same thing happened to me?? or ??



Tomorrow trying to find out what machine shop final figures were for block cyl dia. numbers. Considering pulling transmission (auto) back to see if noise related to it? (Engine was installed by one man without 2nd set of hands for lining things up..... )



Any constructive advice or exp would be greatly appreciated.

 

[MChrist]

Almost sounds like the new rings weren't filed to fit with correct end gap, although that is pretty basic stuff, and not a mistake likely to be made from a person with experience.

 

[S.Morris]

Are you saying that standard bore rings come to long and must be filed for end gap??



years ago we used to buy oversized rings and file endgap to match cyl and get a little more life out of thinks.





The timing cover is being pulled off tonight to try and find source of whining noise... ..... Will report if anything found,

.

Unfortunately , I have not had opportunity to see or hear only relate the above. When I get through this stretch of night shifts, I will get some better info.



Thanks

 

[Lumpy]

The whine could be from your timing gears. If the backlash on the gears is to tight, it'll howl like a mother, too loose, you get gear clatter. I believe the specs for the backlash is . 006 plus or minus . 001. Not for certian though. The blowby might be the rings ot seated. You said after they drove it for a bit for "break in", the blow-by decreased. Did they check the head when they had it off? Valve guides and seats? Would have been a good time to do a valve grind if necessary.

Kevin

 

[Lumpy]

Could do a cylinder leak-down test as well.

 

[S.Morris]

The story continues... ..... I will be able to get to shop tomorrow aft to try and figure out the whole story.....



Timing cover was pullled tonight and there is not a problem there... .

INJectors were removed and compressed air applied to cyl (not proper leak down test but some indication) only one cyl would hold enough pressure back to actually pop when rubber tipped blow gun removed.



My son , who contracted this job out to Int dealer who he is contracted too(complicated). They swap men back and forth depending how busy they are. .

is caught in middle.

As of yet unable to follow paper trail back to see what final bore measurement was at machine shop(Gonna get to bottom of this tomorrow). It is starting to look like... ... . either the machine shop hone job was finished with bore dia being to big for spec or they overbored and that info never made it back to engine guy. He did not actually measure clearances on returned block, just put new rings on all pistons incl two new pistons and slapped her together assuming the bore was correct.



My son said the sound of the air leaking into base sound eerily similiar to sound of running engine whine they could not pinpoint.



I am going to personally measure cyl bore tomorrow after I dig out my bore guages . This is looking like a comedy of errors is taking place and at this point I am speechless.



I will post up my findings when I get a handle on things.



Does any one have cummins 5. 9 specs for bore size,piston to cyl clearance and ring end gap handy?? I have not searched yet. Apparently they have all the info at shop but nobody actually did any measuring before assembly, and if machine shop actually sent figures with invoice , they have not yet been found. Price to hone 6cyl and replace two dry liners, as well as cam bearings was 1200. 00.



Steve

 

[mwilson]

I know parts are higher in Canada but $1200. 00 bucks for the machine work gets you headed towards the price of a brand new block.



The best of techs make mistakes, it happens.



At this point I would strongly suggest a new block, assuming that someone in the chain of repair has insurance for that as we do.



It is simply too much work to take another chance on.



Please e-mail your ESN to -- email address removed -- and I will look up the ring gap for you. It may be tonight before I can get to it but I will do it.

I will also check the price of a new block just for chuckles, it would be good to know for sure.



Also, isn't there only one cam bearing at the very front of the block???? Or has that changed??



Mike.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Also, isn't there only one cam bearing at the very front of the block???? Or has that changed??



Mike.

Yep, that's what I thought too when reading about replacing the cam bearings. AFAIK, the one cam bearing at the front hasn't changed.



Bill

 

[S.Morris]

Thanks for the offer Mike... ... . reading too late and do not have # at hand.

So here's what happened. As I understood it the machine shop was changing two sleeves. That was incorrect. This was also understanding of tech.

The block was bored 0. 020 over on all cyl and this enough to make bad cyl as new. The paper work was sent with block(says machine shop). Truck shop says never received any and tech doing job was going on assumption of replaced sleeves and standard bore... ..... so engine was assembled with standard bore pistons and rings in a 0. 20 over bore...

Engine is apart and things were thoroughly checked out this time> new oversize pistons and rings coming in tomorrow.

Bill: Did not know block only had a front cam brg... ... ... . Know it was to copper and just assumed

1200 seems like a pretty prestigeous price to bore 6 cyl and change one cam brg. This after sending block to Montreal 1,1/2 away because no one local confident to do job.

If all goes well, should be running later in the week. This truck is gonna have to run a lot of miles to get out from under this bill.

Mike, just for kicks , look up a bare block cost using any 04. 5-07 .

I will post up later in the week when this truck is running again.

I told my son that in a couple of years he will be able to laugh about this He isnt quite ready yet:-laf b. ut definitely will not be assuming anything anymore

Steve

 

[mwilson]

Steve,



Interesting thing with this block...



Cummins is forcing the part number over to a short block at twice the price of a bare block... . this is not right and we have sent a help ticket into QuickServe to find out what the h e double hockey sticks is up with that... ... ...



The pricing still shows in the Cummins system for the bare block, it would sell stateside for $1800. 00 to $2000. 00



I will respond when we hear back from the factory, it may take a day or two.



If some genius out there has decided not to sell new blocks and force people into a Reman Short Block we will read him or her the riot act.



A new block has always been a viable repair option for a "B" series when the crank is fine such as a bad injector/piston meltdown. Given the effort required to remove the engine from a CTD it makes sense to me to go new whenever possible.



Will let you know as soon as I hear something.



Mike.

 

[MChrist]

So the howling sound you heard was what, then? Piston slap?

 

[S.Morris]

The howling sound was sound of blowby into the crankcase. They were able to somewhat replicate it when putting compressed air on cylinders... ... ... when they figured out somethings REALLY weren't adding up. Most cyl would not make hardly any back pressure that you could hear when removing rubber tipped blow gun from injector hole.



Funny thing is that it ran well, no smoke and lots of power for the short road test to attempt to seat rings some. No piston noise just this weird howling noise that you would think would of had to come from timing gears but did not.

 

[mwilson]

Steve,

I have not heard back from Cummins yet regarding a block.



I know we are all just curious but would like to get the question answered for future reference.



Seth and I were hashing it over on the way to work and we are thinking that the 5. 9L block could be out of production.

Or at least the front geartrain 5. 9L is done.

It is a scary thought, maybe everything including equipment? has gone to the 6. 7L design so it could be the deal.

Will know more tonight.



Mike.

 

[p-Bar]

Steve,

I have not heard back from Cummins yet regarding a block.



I know we are all just curious but would like to get the question answered.



Seth and I were hashing it over on the way to work and we are thinking that the 5. 9L block could be out of production.

Or at least the front geartrain 5. 9L is done.

It is a scary thought, maybe everything including equipment? has gone to the 6. 7L design so it could be the deal.

Will know more tonight.



Mike.

Hard to believe the 5. 9 would be out of even parts production with as many are out there???

 

[mwilson]

Hard to believe the 5. 9 would be out of even parts production with as many are out there???

It is the only explanation that we could come up this morning. I have never seen them drive a block part number into a reman short block before.



It could also be a supply issue, maybe overseas is using all the blocks being produced. It would be another possibility...



Anxious to hear back on this.



Mike.

 

[JJPage]

couldn't you use a 6. 7 short block?

 

[Bill Stockard]

It could also be a supply issue, maybe overseas is using all the blocks being produced.

Mike.

I'll bet you just answered your question of why no blocks available for replacement in the North American market.



Bill

 

[cerberusiam]

It could also be a supply issue, maybe overseas is using all the blocks being produced.

Are they still casting 5. 9 blocks and assembling engines for overseas, or, just supplying parts?

 

[mwilson]

Are they still casting 5. 9 blocks and assembling engines for overseas, or, just supplying parts?

I have been pondering this, it would seem to me that there would be more profit selling the old design engine rather than a Tier II or Tier III in a country that had no such emissions laws if they can get away with it.

Plus far simpler to maintain and repair.



My thoughts wander back to the Columbus Mid-Range Plant tour in June, all those machines milling out 6. 7L blocks. If I recall we were told that the BEX expansion plant that we were standing in supplied the milled blocks for all the other plants that built a "B" series as well. I wish I was back there right now to ask about the 5. 9L blocks.



Now I need to check the part number and availability of a 6. 7L block, I think it is different but have not proved it out one way or the other.



This is only based on my opinion, no facts yet to back it up... ...



Still no answer from QuickServe, will have Cummins Northeast check the help ticket again in the morning for a response.



Mike.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Are they still casting 5. 9 blocks and assembling engines for overseas, or, just supplying parts?

FYI, from the Cummins web site: Cummins.com > Investors And Media > Worldwide Manufacturing Locations



Bill