Extended Oil Drain

[steved]

If using other brands of oil or "full-flow" filters, they recommend the By-pass be changed every other full-flow change... ..... period! NOT up to 60,000 miles.

Explain why one oil can be ran through a filter longer than another... if it plugs, it plugs.



I'll reserve my thoughts until I hear this explaination...

 

[AH64ID]

What I meant was;Perhaps they misunderstood your question.

I know that's what you meant, but I highly doubt it. . The topic of the conversation was very specific... If that is the case then he misunderstood the entire 10-15 minute conversation. . I called to ask about the bypass and soot in general. . and the bypass valve of the EaBP was brought up by the tech. .

 

[icman95]

Explain why one oil can be ran through a filter longer than another... if it plugs, it plugs.



I'll reserve my thoughts until I hear this explaination...

I know this was meant for amsoilman, but, I sort of asked this question of my Amsoil dealer a while ago and if memory serves, the basic anwer is this:



Amsoil has less or no waxes or such substances in it which would tend to plug a filter faster. Other brands will have some of these substances that will get caught up in the filter faster and thus reduce the filter change time.



I actually asked the question in relation to using an Amsoil filter with regular brand oil. The answer was what I just said above, meaning that the Amsoil filter was so good at filtering, the impurities in a regular brand oil would plug the filter too quickly. I was told that if I had an Amsoil filter, it would be best to use Amsoil oil because the lack of "gunk" won't plug the filter prematurely.



I'm not sure I got this exactly right, but this is how I remember my Amsoil dealer telling it to me.

 

[steved]

I might buy that if we were talking a 1960's oil, but a modern conventional... boy that is stretching the imagination.



That falls along the line of the misinformation that a bypass will strip the additive package from an oil...

 

[amsoilman]

What Icman95 is true! Oils are very complex in the way they are formulated. Along with what he said comes the fact that some oils detergents/dispersant chemicals are not as efficient. Remember also, that some oils on the market are "NON-DETERGENT".

 

[icman95]

Steve,



I'm not an Amsoil salesman or even a chemist who would know the exact details, but I have to imagine that the possibility for impurities in even modern day oils is absolutely true. They are not put there by humans, but simply are part of the chemistry that makes up the product even after refining. After all, until the government mandated its end, there was lead in gasoline and, dare I say, sulfur in diesel. These impurities were put there by mother nature, but removed by humans only when the law required it. Why can't the same be true for lubricating oils?

 

[steved]

Again, I would buy it if we were talking oils made in the 1960s, but modern day oils are very similar to synthetics... and one could guess that synthetics even use the same additives. I have read a lot on other forums, and it seems to be thought that there is no way for a filter to remove additives (other than the oil itself failing)... keep in mind, you are implying that the additives are greater than 2 micron in size to be caught by a filter.



As for impurities, you just basically implied that pouring clean oil in your car isn't any cleaner than what you drain. And again, we are talking modern (and respected name) oils, not some off-the-wall or 1960s oil. While I agree you can have some introduced impurities, aren't those the same impurities we are trying to filter out???



I for one ran a EaBP for 30k... my oil UOA was every bit as good as anyone else running Rotella. The filter actually plugged of at that time, so the filter itself was the limiting factor for the system, not the oil.

 

[pwr2tow]

If your running Non-detergent oils in a modern day engine you'll have bigger problems than filtration.

Non-detergent oils are usually used in motors, electric.

 

[pwr2tow]

Again, I would buy it if we were talking oils made in the 1960s, but modern day oils are very similar to synthetics... and one could guess that synthetics even use the same additives. I have read a lot on other forums, and it seems to be thought that there is no way for a filter to remove additives (other than the oil itself failing)... keep in mind, you are implying that the additives are greater than 2 micron in size to be caught by a filter.

As for impurities, you just basically implied that pouring clean oil in your car isn't any cleaner than what you drain. And again, we are talking modern (and respected name) oils, not some off-the-wall or 1960s oil. While I agree you can have some introduced impurities, aren't those the same impurities we are trying to filter out???

I for one ran a EaBP for 30k... my oil UOA was every bit as good as anyone else running Rotella. The filter actually plugged of at that time, so the filter itself was the limiting factor for the system, not the oil.

I agree 110%.

 

[pwr2tow]

Steve,

I'm not an Amsoil salesman or even a chemist who would know the exact details, but I have to imagine that the possibility for impurities in even modern day oils is absolutely true. They are not put there by humans, but simply are part of the chemistry that makes up the product even after refining. After all, until the government mandated its end, there was lead in gasoline and, dare I say, sulfur in diesel. These impurities were put there by mother nature, but removed by humans only when the law required it. Why can't the same be true for lubricating oils?

Just pointing out something, Lead was put in gasoline by man not mother nature, but I get your point.

The thing is refining of todays oil is far superior to any time in history. If you can find an oil refined for consumption in todays modern engines that needs extra refinment when poured out of the bottle I sure would like proof. With bobistheoilguy.com website we sure would have seen it by now.

 

[pwr2tow]

The molecular structure of conventional group III oils mimics some synthetics, Exceeds some synthetics, and comes close to other synthetics.

The additive packages are shared by the same be it synthetic or conventional oils.

 

[amsoilman]

The molecular structure of conventional group III oils mimics some synthetics, Exceeds some synthetics, and comes close to other synthetics.



The additive packages are shared by the same be it synthetic or conventional oils.

There are several different levels of additive packages that will meet the API requirements for most Engine oils.

As too base oils, Group IV and Group V are a true synthetic type, and offer higher quality when it comes to producing engine oils, and in some cases where a Group IV and Group V is used together, even higher quality can be acheived.

 

[amsoilman]

That falls along the line of the misinformation that a bypass will strip the additive package from an oil...

Who has said a by-pass or ANY filter for that matter will strip the additive package from oil? There is no oil filter that will strip conventional additives from oil.



Wayne

 

[pwr2tow]

There are several different levels of additive packages that will meet the API requirements for most Engine oils.
As too base oils, Group IV and Group V are a true synthetic type, and offer higher quality when it comes to producing engine oils, and in some cases where a Group IV and Group V is used together, even higher quality can be acheived.

If you were to use straight base oils I'll give the group IV & V a slight hedge but nobody sells straight base oils for use in combustion engines. Every engine oil that I'am aware of uses additive packages to make their oils more robust. Thank man kind for additive packages that help group III oils perform like synthetics along with superior refining technology. Superior additive packages along with highly refined group III oils makes a high quality engine oil for less cost.

 

[pwr2tow]

Who has said a by-pass or ANY filter for that matter will strip the additive package from oil? There is no oil filter that will strip conventional additives from oil.

Wayne

Speaking for myself, NOBODY said a by-pass will strip additives from the oil. He was speaking hypothetical and referring to micron size and particals in oils in relation to someones comment.

 

[icman95]

Again, I would buy it if we were talking oils made in the 1960s, but modern day oils are very similar to synthetics... and one could guess that synthetics even use the same additives. I have read a lot on other forums, and it seems to be thought that there is no way for a filter to remove additives (other than the oil itself failing)... keep in mind, you are implying that the additives are greater than 2 micron in size to be caught by a filter.



As for impurities, you just basically implied that pouring clean oil in your car isn't any cleaner than what you drain. And again, we are talking modern (and respected name) oils, not some off-the-wall or 1960s oil. While I agree you can have some introduced impurities, aren't those the same impurities we are trying to filter out???



I for one ran a EaBP for 30k... my oil UOA was every bit as good as anyone else running Rotella. The filter actually plugged of at that time, so the filter itself was the limiting factor for the system, not the oil.

I think we're stretching the scope of what's going on here. I can't seem to find where I was talking about the additive package being stripped by the filter. The additives are not impurites. They are just that-additives. Also, it is possible to have impurities in a fluid BEFORE it is used and not be a bad thing. For example people pay more per gallon for mineral water than they do for gasoline, yet the mineral part of mineral water is the impurity. Is this a bad thing? No, of course not, but technically speaking anything in there that is not hydrogen or oxygen is an impurity.

While I agree you can have some introduced impurities, aren't those the same impurities we are trying to filter out???

Yes, and that, I believe, is what the original question was all about. You asked why one oil can be run through a filter longer than another. Similarly, you can ask why the same oil can be run through two different brands of filters and get different results. The answer in my view, is because they are not all the same. While every oil and filter has to meet certain minimum requirements, anything after that is up to the individual manufacturer. Let's say that the Amsoil filters use a much smaller filter medium (you mentioned 2 microns) than a competitor. It would be necessary for one to use an oil capable of passing through such a small opening to avoid prematurely plugging the filter. It you were to use a competing filter, say, Fram or Wix, it is possible that they filter to the required minimim and no more-say maybe 15 microns. In this case an oil with some introduced impurites would pass through no problem, but might clog the tighter filter.



In either case, the impurites we're trying to filter out aren't necessarily the ones in there when it comes out of the bottle. They are the particulates in the oil from combustion, dirt entering from who knows where, minute metal pieces from normal wear and tear. After all, our fuel filters don't and never were designed to remove the sulfur or diesel treatment (additives) from our fuel.



I realize that using the word impurites gives a negative light to what I'm trying to say and there may be a better way to say it, but I can't come up with a better word for it. How about "the stuff that's in there that neither hurts nor helps us, but might clog a filter, maybe, sometime. "

 

[amsoilman]

If you were to use straight base oils I'll give the group IV & V a slight hedge but nobody sells straight base oils for use in combustion engines. Every engine oil that I'am aware of uses additive packages to make their oils more robust. Thank man kind for additive packages that help group III oils perform like synthetics along with superior refining technology. Superior additive packages along with highly refined group III oils makes a high quality engine oil for less cost.

Most finished lubricants consist of a basestock and various additives selected to improve or supplement the basestock's performance. The basestock is the primary component, usually 70 to 99% of the finished oil or grease, and its properties play a vital role. The basestock dictate the flow characteristics of the oil, the temperature range in which it can operate, and many other vital properties such as volatility, lubricity, and cleanliness.

Additives enhance the properties of the finished lubricants or impart new ones, such as improving stability at both high and low temperatures, modifying the flow properties, and reducing wear, friction, rust and corrosion.



The basestocks and additives work together, and when carefully selected and balanced, allow the finished oil to protect moving parts from wear, remove heat and dirt, prevent rust and corrosion, and improve energy efficiency. This is why Amsoil stands above others in terms of High quality long distance oil change intervals of up to 35,000 miles/one year.



No other oil company that I know of will recommend or suggest this!



I will agree with you on the fact that group III base oils, along with a robust additive package will have some attributes of a TRUE synthetic (PAO or Diester)



Defining the term "synthetic lubricant" is becoming more controversial these days, but in general it refers to a lubricant or grease whose basestock has been manufactured by chemical synthesis or organic reaction, as opposed to being extracted or refined from naturally occurring oils.



It has only been since the late 90's when Mobil and Castrol wound up in a big dispute concerning the way "SYNTHETICS" were made, that allowed the group III oils to be called "SYNTHETICS".



True Group IV and Group IV synthetics represent a different approach altogether from conventional petroleum based oils in that their molecular structures are custom designed and tailored to meet specific performance targets. You simply can't do that with a group III basestock.