I like that comparison. Now if you add that the burger king gets on the phone and insures that all the mcdonalds and such ALSO raise their prices from the new demand, you got what is aggravating us all I think. As the bus drives around with the passengers getting more hungry, finally they pay the exhorbitant price for a burger, the franchisee gets his multimillion dollar retirement from the excess profits. Darn, I think I will open a burger king!
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Exxon caught red handed raping the public!!!!!!
- Thread starter john3976
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1) I heard today that the CEO will have earned $1B since early 1990's. Last I heard Bill Gates earned over $8B in about the same time-frame. Why is it that no one is complaining that Bill Gates chrages $200 for a CD with some software on it that they can duplicate for about $0. 50?
2) If you found out that most of your mutual fund's profits were coming from Exon/Moble stock, would you sell it and give the money away to the more needy? I didn't think so.
3) I don't like paying $2. 85 / gallon for diesel any more than the next guy, but I sure don't want the gov't to fix it with by regulation. The real screw-up by the gov't was letting Exon and Moble merge in the 1st place. What were they thinking?
2) If you found out that most of your mutual fund's profits were coming from Exon/Moble stock, would you sell it and give the money away to the more needy? I didn't think so.
3) I don't like paying $2. 85 / gallon for diesel any more than the next guy, but I sure don't want the gov't to fix it with by regulation. The real screw-up by the gov't was letting Exon and Moble merge in the 1st place. What were they thinking?
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The reason you don't hear nearly as much about Microsoft and Bill Gates is because you have many choices in software, you don't have to buy Microsoft Office, you can instead buy other brands of Office programs for as little as 20 dollars and you can even get free office programs on line.
Can you show me one place where I can get gas at a greatly reduced price from an Exxon competitor?
Or better yet show where I can fill up for free!
Bill Gates product is a not a requirement, while needing fuel is a requirement.
Now do I think Bill Gates deserves his billions? No, and the reason is his programs crash far to much for my liking.
Now can you tell me why a person who earned one billion dollars even needs a pension?
Can you show me one place where I can get gas at a greatly reduced price from an Exxon competitor?
Or better yet show where I can fill up for free!
Bill Gates product is a not a requirement, while needing fuel is a requirement.
Now do I think Bill Gates deserves his billions? No, and the reason is his programs crash far to much for my liking.
Now can you tell me why a person who earned one billion dollars even needs a pension?
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It's called a contract. At the time it was signed, the neither the CEOs $1B pay nor $400M retirement would have been guaranteed - it's all tied to the company stock price and profits. Probably every vested employee is tied into the same factors, and even the lowest of those employees are most likely very happy that the CEO hit the big payday because it is directly related to money in their own pocket.john3976 said:
While I sympathize with the argument of the price of oil is causing a strain on the working man, ranting about the CEOs pension is not relevant to the discussion. I would like to see Exxon invest in building a bio plant so I can get bio in Vegas. Government regulation IS NOT the solution, although the threat of it seems to help bring prices down.
Speaking of the working man, since this is such a hardship please help me understand the old, dilapidated suburban driven by a less-than-affluent woman that left the pump just ahead of me last night. The exhaust reeked of unburned fuel - suspect she must be getting less than 8mpg on the highway. Yet as she left, she gunned it to cover the 40 yards to the stop light. When the light went green she gunned it to jump ahead of the traffic only to make it down the road a 1/4 mile to the next stop light. I was pacing along and changed lanes so I didn't have to stop behind her as the light was changing to green. As I rolled by her at about 10mph she has got it floored trying to make sure I don't get too far out in front of her. I imagine in 1 mile she must have burned $3 worth of fuel. Am I supposed to sympathize with her too if she doesn't care herself?
Wow, so many have lost touch with 50% of America, not everyone can buy a nice new fuel saving car, a lot of people are stuck going to a buy here pay here lot and getting what ever they can get.
Yes a lot of those people created the problem by making mistakes in the past and they are paying for that now.
Don't assume that everyone can walk into a dealer lot and buy a 2006 vehicle or even a used newer vehicle for that matter.
I once seen a young lady who had a new car and saw the buyers contract, it read 28% interest, I asked her who sold her the car, she proudly looked and said her uncle, I told here her uncle is not much of a person.
You are also very misinformed on how pension plans work, if you think in any way that the ground level employees pension is in anyway tied to how well the company did and how well the CEO's pension was or is you are way out in left field.
In fact I bet Exxon pension to lower level workers is very lacking.
Yes a lot of those people created the problem by making mistakes in the past and they are paying for that now.
Don't assume that everyone can walk into a dealer lot and buy a 2006 vehicle or even a used newer vehicle for that matter.
I once seen a young lady who had a new car and saw the buyers contract, it read 28% interest, I asked her who sold her the car, she proudly looked and said her uncle, I told here her uncle is not much of a person.
You are also very misinformed on how pension plans work, if you think in any way that the ground level employees pension is in anyway tied to how well the company did and how well the CEO's pension was or is you are way out in left field.
In fact I bet Exxon pension to lower level workers is very lacking.
Traditional "defined benefit" pension plans have just about gone the way of the dinosaur. If an employee has a pension plan today, it's likely a defined contribution plan, and most of these are supplemented by a 401(k). My 401(k) is worth about 3 times what my defined contribution pension plan is worth, and my 401(k) does derive its value from company stock, the S&P 500 index, international stock funds, etc. Therefore, my retirement security is directly tied to the value of my company's stock.john3976 said:
And I haven't even mentioned stock options and restricted stock awards.
Rusty
Guess you are out of touch with reading comprehension. If she was concerned about the price of fuel, she wouldn't be telling her right foot to burn it as fast as possible, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF CAR IT IS. Understand?john3976 said:
More difficulty with reading comprehension, in addition to a complete lack of understanding on how public companies work. In addition to Rusty's post regarding pensions, employee bonuses are tied to company stock and profit (considered a portion of pay and why I said "money in their own pocket", not money in their pension plan). One of those amazing inventions of the 20th century.john3976 said:
Golly gee, some employees even posted about their bonuses on this board! 
You sound like a jealous and disgruntled complainer. Open your eyes and look beyond your blind rage.
John & Company,
I cannot prove or disprove your conspiracy theory that Big Oil is holding back on fuel production. If they are doing it they would ALL have to be in on it. Kind of a risky move for these companies to take if you think about it. It would require hundreds of people to be in on it. If it were true the guys that are actually working in the refineries might have something to say about it when the boss man comes in and tells them to scale back production for no good reason. Something like that might just leak out and start some investigations...
Since I can't convince you on the refining supply and demand theory and you prefer to walk around all day in an angry cloud of conspiracy theory lets move on to the cost of a barrel of oil. Last I saw it was around $71/barrel. Three years ago it was $28/barrel. At the rate it is going it will easily hit $80/barrel by the end of the year. This trend is pretty scary in my opinion. There is SOME collusion is this price since OPEC has something to say about overall oil production from some countries. Again, not much you or I can do about this either. China & India are guzzling fuel like crazy and don't show any signs of slowing... or is that a rumor also started by Big Oil?
I cannot prove or disprove your conspiracy theory that Big Oil is holding back on fuel production. If they are doing it they would ALL have to be in on it. Kind of a risky move for these companies to take if you think about it. It would require hundreds of people to be in on it. If it were true the guys that are actually working in the refineries might have something to say about it when the boss man comes in and tells them to scale back production for no good reason. Something like that might just leak out and start some investigations...
Since I can't convince you on the refining supply and demand theory and you prefer to walk around all day in an angry cloud of conspiracy theory lets move on to the cost of a barrel of oil. Last I saw it was around $71/barrel. Three years ago it was $28/barrel. At the rate it is going it will easily hit $80/barrel by the end of the year. This trend is pretty scary in my opinion. There is SOME collusion is this price since OPEC has something to say about overall oil production from some countries. Again, not much you or I can do about this either. China & India are guzzling fuel like crazy and don't show any signs of slowing... or is that a rumor also started by Big Oil?
john3976 said:
John,
You are true in saying that not everyone can afford to go down and buy a new hybrid fuel efficient car. However, when you say that buying fuel is a necessity you aren't 100% accurate. People make all sorts of choices in life and the vehicle you are driving now is one of them. Where you live relative to where you work is another.
If you have a nice house in the country and drive 30 miles to work each way like half of America YOU made that choice. When I bought my last house I made the CHOICE to find something very close to work since I didn't want to spend a lot of time and fuel driving every day. If the weather is nice I ride my bike to work. I personally have only bought 10 gallons of diesel in the last month. (Yes, it is hard to do because I LOVE driving my truck)
You can make some smart decisions and be part of the solution or you can continue to walk around all ****** off and be part of the problem. Check out the alternative fuels section of this forum. Some dude, "BPINE" I think is his login name, does a lot of driving and buys very little diesel. You can get back at Big Oil by investing some time and effort and make your own biodiesel. I am personally going to get together with a few other guys who also don't like paying $3/gallon and start brewing my own.
I know everybody doesn't have the option of living up the street from where they work and not everybody can go down and buy a new hybrid, but EVERYBODY that owns and drives a vehicle can do some things to save on fuel. If you want to get back at Big Oil that is how you do it. People are so caught up in the old days of cheap fuel that they don't want to get out of their gas guzzling ways and do something about it. At this point it really doesn't matter, because 90% of the people on the road will wake up and start making some better decisions when the fuel hits $4/gallon or $5/gallon, etc...
If you just want to see Big Oil make less profit this may be a way: Raise the fuel taxes. I know, you are thinking WTF? How will raising fuel taxes do any good?
Let's make some nice round numbers for the breakdown of the cost of a gallon of gas: $1/gallon for drilling, pumping and distribution to refineries, $1/gallon for refining and distribution to gas stations, and $1 for fuel taxes. I know these aren't accurate and I left out a few other costs, but stick with me.
The current rate of fuel available to the public fetches roughly $3/gallon. There is no mystery in the fact that the good old boys in the refineries are making a killing on their piece of the pie. Lets say it costs them $0. 50 to refine a gallon and $0. 50 is profit. The government COULD raise the tax to $1. 25/gallon with very little effect on the final price of the fuel. The consumer price would still be $3/gallon to sell the same amount of fuel. Big Oil's profit margin would just take a hit.
Would this help your price at the pump? Nope. The extra tax money could be used to promote ethanol, biodiesel, and other aternative fuels, but they are a long way away from making any significant cost effects at the pump. But then you could cry about the government wasting all your tax money instead of the refineries getting rich.
Let's make some nice round numbers for the breakdown of the cost of a gallon of gas: $1/gallon for drilling, pumping and distribution to refineries, $1/gallon for refining and distribution to gas stations, and $1 for fuel taxes. I know these aren't accurate and I left out a few other costs, but stick with me.
The current rate of fuel available to the public fetches roughly $3/gallon. There is no mystery in the fact that the good old boys in the refineries are making a killing on their piece of the pie. Lets say it costs them $0. 50 to refine a gallon and $0. 50 is profit. The government COULD raise the tax to $1. 25/gallon with very little effect on the final price of the fuel. The consumer price would still be $3/gallon to sell the same amount of fuel. Big Oil's profit margin would just take a hit.
Would this help your price at the pump? Nope. The extra tax money could be used to promote ethanol, biodiesel, and other aternative fuels, but they are a long way away from making any significant cost effects at the pump. But then you could cry about the government wasting all your tax money instead of the refineries getting rich.
A few things here... .
Why are some of you hung up on the raw profit number the media spews at you all the time?? Is it a big number? Yup, sure is. Oil companies are big companies and their raw profit number is going to be large. Last time I checked, the reason a company does business in America is to make profit. I don't know a whole lot of "businessmen" who get into business to lose money. The part of the equation you're leaving out is the expenses to make that profit... . or profit margin. Do you even know what the profit margin is for the oil and gas industry in relation to the national average or to other industries? Here's the 2005 3rd quarter chart...
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/ACF1C0.pdf
Looks to me that there are some other industries who are "raping" the general public. We certainly wouldn't want access to cheaper pharmaceuticals.
Are they making more per dollar than some companies, you bet. Are they also making less than some per dollar, you bet again. As recently as 1999, oil industry profit margins were below the all industry average.
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/ACF14D.pdf#search='oil company profit margins'
Gas prices are certainly high but I doubt there are many nefarious things going on between competing companies. Government intervention certainly isn't the answer. IMO, I could go for a lot less government in my day to day. Crude prices are up because of market insecurity(read Iran likes to talk a bunch of junk) as well as the economics of supply and demand. You simply cannot deny the increase in crude demand that the industrialization of China has had. It had the same effect on the price of structural steel about 2 years ago. If the Government really wanted to do something about oil prices, they'd actually try drilling some oil in this country... the mythical wildlife habitat called ANWR comes to mind or perhaps off the coasts of Florida. Even if we had the oil from these reserves we probably couldn't refine it, there hasn't been an oil refinery built in this country since the 70's and the refineries that are still in operation are running at near maximum capacity. Some older information on the subject. http://www.madisonenergy.com/news/news_display.cfm?Section=NEWS&ArticleID=182156
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn51986.htm
On the topic of the 400 million retirement package... . big deal. It sure is a lot of money but it certainly isn't my place to tell the Exxon shareholders how to disperse their "profits. " All he did was make Exxon the largest publicly traded company in the world and in the process, I'm sure he made a lot of people, i. e. employees, shareholders, people who invest in S&P 500 mutual funds, a bunch of money. In 2005, the company was valued at 376 billion dollars... 400 million is less than . 2% of that number. Perhaps it was in his contract that if Exxon reached X goals in revenue by his retirement he would be entitled to Y retirement package.
Why are some of you hung up on the raw profit number the media spews at you all the time?? Is it a big number? Yup, sure is. Oil companies are big companies and their raw profit number is going to be large. Last time I checked, the reason a company does business in America is to make profit. I don't know a whole lot of "businessmen" who get into business to lose money. The part of the equation you're leaving out is the expenses to make that profit... . or profit margin. Do you even know what the profit margin is for the oil and gas industry in relation to the national average or to other industries? Here's the 2005 3rd quarter chart...
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/ACF1C0.pdf
Looks to me that there are some other industries who are "raping" the general public. We certainly wouldn't want access to cheaper pharmaceuticals.
Are they making more per dollar than some companies, you bet. Are they also making less than some per dollar, you bet again. As recently as 1999, oil industry profit margins were below the all industry average.
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/ACF14D.pdf#search='oil company profit margins'
Gas prices are certainly high but I doubt there are many nefarious things going on between competing companies. Government intervention certainly isn't the answer. IMO, I could go for a lot less government in my day to day. Crude prices are up because of market insecurity(read Iran likes to talk a bunch of junk) as well as the economics of supply and demand. You simply cannot deny the increase in crude demand that the industrialization of China has had. It had the same effect on the price of structural steel about 2 years ago. If the Government really wanted to do something about oil prices, they'd actually try drilling some oil in this country... the mythical wildlife habitat called ANWR comes to mind or perhaps off the coasts of Florida. Even if we had the oil from these reserves we probably couldn't refine it, there hasn't been an oil refinery built in this country since the 70's and the refineries that are still in operation are running at near maximum capacity. Some older information on the subject. http://www.madisonenergy.com/news/news_display.cfm?Section=NEWS&ArticleID=182156
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn51986.htm
On the topic of the 400 million retirement package... . big deal. It sure is a lot of money but it certainly isn't my place to tell the Exxon shareholders how to disperse their "profits. " All he did was make Exxon the largest publicly traded company in the world and in the process, I'm sure he made a lot of people, i. e. employees, shareholders, people who invest in S&P 500 mutual funds, a bunch of money. In 2005, the company was valued at 376 billion dollars... 400 million is less than . 2% of that number. Perhaps it was in his contract that if Exxon reached X goals in revenue by his retirement he would be entitled to Y retirement package.
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I can't say it any better than:Neal Boortz , from the April 19 show.
"Let's take a look at a few facts. First, the cost of crude oil for each gallon of gas sold in this country has gone up from about 35 cents per gallon in 1999 to $1. 59 per gallon in 2006. So ... crude oil prices go up by 454% over a period of seven years. How much did gas prices go up during the same period? Try 162%. Looks to me like things could be worse.
So ... did George Bush set those crude oil prices? Did the oil companies go out there and set the prices that high? Helllloooo! Do you think the oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia might have had anything to do with it? Is it possible that the ever-increasing worldwide demand for crude oil was a factor? How about the fact that oil exploration slowed several years ago when crude was selling for under $20 a barrel? Now that the price is so much higher many more companies are getting into the exploration business ... but it takes somewhere around 5 years from discovery of an oil deposit to actual production. The price of oil didn't start its uphill swing until about 2004. Do the math. You also have the fact that oil is a commodity that is traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Traders have much to do about setting prices. Do you suppose that George Bush is calling these traders in to coach them on just what those prices should be? That's what the Democrats want you to believe.
Besides . . can Big Oil set the price, even if it wanted to? As The Motley Fool points out on their website, there are dozens of publicly traded oil companies. Add to that mix the government-owned oil companies like Saudi Aramco, and the hundreds of small private companies (my brother used to be the president of one such company) that are drilling around the world ... and the Democrats want you to believe that they all got together to set these crude prices? Not one of these companies wants to seek an advantage in the market place by lowering their prices?
This is all about playing on the ignorance of the American people for political advantage. These Democrats and most in the media know the score. They understand the difference between gross profits and profit margins ... and they know that most Americans do not. "
"Let's take a look at a few facts. First, the cost of crude oil for each gallon of gas sold in this country has gone up from about 35 cents per gallon in 1999 to $1. 59 per gallon in 2006. So ... crude oil prices go up by 454% over a period of seven years. How much did gas prices go up during the same period? Try 162%. Looks to me like things could be worse.
So ... did George Bush set those crude oil prices? Did the oil companies go out there and set the prices that high? Helllloooo! Do you think the oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia might have had anything to do with it? Is it possible that the ever-increasing worldwide demand for crude oil was a factor? How about the fact that oil exploration slowed several years ago when crude was selling for under $20 a barrel? Now that the price is so much higher many more companies are getting into the exploration business ... but it takes somewhere around 5 years from discovery of an oil deposit to actual production. The price of oil didn't start its uphill swing until about 2004. Do the math. You also have the fact that oil is a commodity that is traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Traders have much to do about setting prices. Do you suppose that George Bush is calling these traders in to coach them on just what those prices should be? That's what the Democrats want you to believe.
Besides . . can Big Oil set the price, even if it wanted to? As The Motley Fool points out on their website, there are dozens of publicly traded oil companies. Add to that mix the government-owned oil companies like Saudi Aramco, and the hundreds of small private companies (my brother used to be the president of one such company) that are drilling around the world ... and the Democrats want you to believe that they all got together to set these crude prices? Not one of these companies wants to seek an advantage in the market place by lowering their prices?
This is all about playing on the ignorance of the American people for political advantage. These Democrats and most in the media know the score. They understand the difference between gross profits and profit margins ... and they know that most Americans do not. "
nps said:Guess you are out of touch with reading comprehension. If she was concerned about the price of fuel, she wouldn't be telling her right foot to burn it as fast as possible, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF CAR IT IS. Understand?
More difficulty with reading comprehension, in addition to a complete lack of understanding on how public companies work. In addition to Rusty's post regarding pensions, employee bonuses are tied to company stock and profit (considered a portion of pay and why I said "money in their own pocket", not money in their pension plan). One of those amazing inventions of the 20th century.
You sound like a jealous and disgruntled complainer. Open your eyes and look beyond your blind rage.
Duh, I don't under stand, could you please type slowwweerrrr.
First off very few companies offer bonuses to the lower level employees and those that do make the requirement so hard to meet that bonus that one little mis-step in your units performance and there goes the bonus up in flames, the company still made profit from your work but you were over just a hair on your labor so you lose.
I know, my wife works for companies that give bonuses, her current company is far more reasonable then the last one.
As to those making money on how well the company is doing are playing the stock market game so if the market drops so does their retirement. Anyone can do the same thing on their own, a 401K is nothing more then an account for you to play stock broker with, the only difference is you can't touch the money without penalty until you are 59 1/2, or under a dire emergency of which only a hand full of reason qualify. The age may be higher for you I am not sure I am under highrisk employment so for me it would be 59 1/2.
I am very aware of the two types of pension plans, I have the choice where I work, sorry but I am staying with the safe bet, no hoping the market stays strong for me, I know what I will get and if the market takes a dive I will still be getting my check each month without penalty of a crashed market. By the way my pension is rated as one of the top ten pension funds in America at number 7 on the list.
I also bet there are not that many in this forum who get bonuses.
As to the first part of your smart A*&^% reply, maybe she does not care how much gas costs, you ever stop to think about that? nope I did not think you did.
First off the fuel tax is on a per gallon basis added on to the top of the price of fuel so extra taxes would do nothing but add to the cost of fuel. And for those of you that think that big oil could not possibly be cheating us, lets review a few of the law suits that have been settled lately, Kaiser Francis lost a 72million dollar suit with the jist of it being that more gas was being sold out of a particular field that they were paying the royalty owners for, Conoco Phillips just lost a similar lawsuit. So those that think that Big Oil won't cheat the American public should pull their heads out of the sand. If they will cheat the royalty owner who have given up 7/8 of the production they will cheat the public.
When your gross profits become so big that they become obscene you can afford to lower your profit margin.
Or you can continue to do like Big Oil is doing now and say to hell with a lower profit margin, we would rather see how far we can push things and when they push it just that one penny to far and the economy falls flat on its face it will be to late for Big Oil to roll back the prices because by the time they figure out they killed the goose that laid the golden egg, there will be no economy left, we will be in a 1930's era depression and it won't be pretty.
You will know that Big Oil has pushed it to far when you start reading about the crime rates gong up. That will be the poorest doing what ever they have to to survive. It will steadily move up the chain of life as people end up out in the street, you know no body ever thought it would happen in the late twenty's into the early thirty's but it did and history has a way repeating its self, the circumstances may be different on how we get there but rest assured if we continue on the path Big Oil has us on it will happen.
Or you can continue to do like Big Oil is doing now and say to hell with a lower profit margin, we would rather see how far we can push things and when they push it just that one penny to far and the economy falls flat on its face it will be to late for Big Oil to roll back the prices because by the time they figure out they killed the goose that laid the golden egg, there will be no economy left, we will be in a 1930's era depression and it won't be pretty.
You will know that Big Oil has pushed it to far when you start reading about the crime rates gong up. That will be the poorest doing what ever they have to to survive. It will steadily move up the chain of life as people end up out in the street, you know no body ever thought it would happen in the late twenty's into the early thirty's but it did and history has a way repeating its self, the circumstances may be different on how we get there but rest assured if we continue on the path Big Oil has us on it will happen.
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