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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) F-1 Mach 4's
- Thread starter JWick
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Well, I've lately had occasion to test my 150hp F-1 Mach 4s here in a cold blast. It's been in the teens-- DURING THE DAY, and my truck will fire right up, NO PROBLEM even after completely cold soaked, and not being plugged in.
The ECM I'm testing at the moment has caused NO behavior problems whatsoever, and mpg is awesome-- I'm over 280miles and still have about 3/4 tank
So-- short answer is that your stumble is BOX related, not injectors or something else. There's a very good reason that TST leaves timing to the ECM, instead of adding its own. You are discovering that reason now.
JMO
The ECM I'm testing at the moment has caused NO behavior problems whatsoever, and mpg is awesome-- I'm over 280miles and still have about 3/4 tank
So-- short answer is that your stumble is BOX related, not injectors or something else. There's a very good reason that TST leaves timing to the ECM, instead of adding its own. You are discovering that reason now.
JMO
... 
Marco said:
Marco, i hear you and I get your point. My comment was kind of a knee jerk response based on the fact that you said your ECM will have no stumble. I've been dealing with this for 5 years now. The fact that you have seen bad memory chips in the factory ECM sure makes me believe that mine is an ECM problem. I realize you can not control all the factors outside of the ECM that could contribute. Let me explain what i have done, and if there is anything else i should try please suggest it. I have run 6 different sets of injectors in my truck, all had the stumble, larger they got worse it got. I have had at one time or another 4 different boxes on my truck. My truck has had this stumble since almost new, and gets worse as I add more power. it does it with boxes on/off, and no box installed on the truck. I have checked all the grounds and connections. So, i think it may be the ECM, I dont know, but i hope it is that simple. Any way, I'm going to call Bob and order one. Thank you for the info.
On edit, i wanted to add something that has not been mentioned, and maybe this will make since to you as you know the programming. My stumble is definitely temperature related. The colder it gets, the more noticeable. However, mine also seems to be boost related. The problem is much more noticeable with the stock turbo than the B1. Its almost like the motor is confused by the higher boost levels the stocker puts out at cruise/moderate acceleration. When you really put your foot in it, there is no stumble either, just at moderate boost levels 14-25 psi or so. dont know if this makes any sense.
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rubberneck,
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... .....
I'd suggest you two things.
1) Shoot ChrisW a Pm and talk with him about your problem. Compare what you have with what he had. Sitting here some 5000 miles away from you, your symptoms sure sound like what Chris had. I could be wrong... I'm sure he would be glad to help.
2) Explain it one more time to us here. What exactly happens, when and how? What have you already done trying to fix it? Is your VP original?
C'mon, you got the pic whatever comes to mind... ... .
Marco
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... .....
I'd suggest you two things.
1) Shoot ChrisW a Pm and talk with him about your problem. Compare what you have with what he had. Sitting here some 5000 miles away from you, your symptoms sure sound like what Chris had. I could be wrong... I'm sure he would be glad to help.
2) Explain it one more time to us here. What exactly happens, when and how? What have you already done trying to fix it? Is your VP original?
C'mon, you got the pic whatever comes to mind... ... .
Marco
Bob Wagner
TDR MEMBER
rivercat, they leave here 11/30
1st of all, to all you guys out there worried about your comps, let me say, MY problem as Marco correctly stated is not related to MY comp box. I already knew that and have known it for some time. 90% of the time i leave it off. My truck had this problem bone stock(although very hard to tell) but it was there. My truck did it with a van aaken, an EZ, an EZ/TST pmcomp stack and now with the edge comp. I realize 100% what marco is saying about too much timing causing the miss, and that is why many complain of their shudder with comp boxes and other timing boxes. That problem and mine are perhaps the same but for different reasons, I dont know. Maybe like he stated earlier, due to manufacturing variations, my truck is slightly more advanced than others, or i have a problem with the ECM itself. I have already contacted Bob to see if i can get one of the units headed for italy next week. If it fixes my problem I will be 
if not, i will continue to hunt. I dont want my posting about this issue with my truck to be misrepresented as an issue with the catcher. I am simply hoping that some of the more experienced here have some ideas.
Ok, here goes marco, just for you. first, yes my vp44 is original, I have had a fuel pressure gauge from just about day one and have never run it with low pressures, the pump wire has been tapped since 14k miles, truck now has 93k on it. The truck never throws any codes, and I have a snap on scanner and have never been able to detect any issues. I realize that the scanner is just a sampling of data, and not necessarily "real time" data, but none the less, all of the various imputs seem to be accurate iat, coolant temp etc. Typically, I do not notice the problem if temps are above 65 degrees. It is usually intermittent if at all between about 60 and 65 degrees. Below 60 degrees, it is usually always there, very annoying below 40. What it feels like to me from the drivers seat, is like it is starting to run out of fuel. Basically it feels like you are turning the key on and off really really quickly, almost like you are missing on one cylinder.
I first noticed the "shudder" at about 6k miles. At that time, i had an EZ and DD3's on the truck. I assumed bad EZ, replaced it. Still there. Bought a vanaaken, still there. Took boxes completely off, still there. Put stock injectors back in, still there, although much harder to tell. I then removed each connecter on the motor including the one on the ecm, inspected them and put some dielectric grease on them and reinstalled. I have checked all of the grounds that run from the batteries to the body and frame, and they are good. I currently have Mach 4. 5's and the truck has never idled this smooth or quiet, not even with stock injectors. At wide open throttle, it runs like a beast, smooth as glass, and with the dragcomp pulls all the way up to 32-3400 rpm. Also smooth at very light throttle. I notice the problem the most at low moderate to mod-heavy throttle. Very annoying to cruise at 75-80 mph when it is doing it especially with a trailer. With my B1, i run 9 psi boost at 75, with the stock turbo it is more like 14 psi. Feels worse with the stocker.
I remember reading a paper by somebody on here that thought the problem was related to the boost maps being out of sync with the throttle position. Something about with the bigger injectors and boxes requiring a lot less throttle to get the required amount of fuel to cruise down the road. Therefor the computer was confused because it was seeing too high of boost for a given throttle position. It was therefor always trying to cut the fuel back. Does that make any sense? They mentioned that bigger turbos tended to tame the issue a bit. I dont know, i just remember reading something and thinking nothing i could do about it, so why worry. But it is very annoying and because i have continued to go bigger with everything, it has become more noticeable. Basically, I am going to try the catcher and hope for the best. If it doesn't work, and i can trace it to anything else, I am going to p-pump the truck. Sorry for the long post.
if not, i will continue to hunt. I dont want my posting about this issue with my truck to be misrepresented as an issue with the catcher. I am simply hoping that some of the more experienced here have some ideas. Ok, here goes marco, just for you. first, yes my vp44 is original, I have had a fuel pressure gauge from just about day one and have never run it with low pressures, the pump wire has been tapped since 14k miles, truck now has 93k on it. The truck never throws any codes, and I have a snap on scanner and have never been able to detect any issues. I realize that the scanner is just a sampling of data, and not necessarily "real time" data, but none the less, all of the various imputs seem to be accurate iat, coolant temp etc. Typically, I do not notice the problem if temps are above 65 degrees. It is usually intermittent if at all between about 60 and 65 degrees. Below 60 degrees, it is usually always there, very annoying below 40. What it feels like to me from the drivers seat, is like it is starting to run out of fuel. Basically it feels like you are turning the key on and off really really quickly, almost like you are missing on one cylinder.
I first noticed the "shudder" at about 6k miles. At that time, i had an EZ and DD3's on the truck. I assumed bad EZ, replaced it. Still there. Bought a vanaaken, still there. Took boxes completely off, still there. Put stock injectors back in, still there, although much harder to tell. I then removed each connecter on the motor including the one on the ecm, inspected them and put some dielectric grease on them and reinstalled. I have checked all of the grounds that run from the batteries to the body and frame, and they are good. I currently have Mach 4. 5's and the truck has never idled this smooth or quiet, not even with stock injectors. At wide open throttle, it runs like a beast, smooth as glass, and with the dragcomp pulls all the way up to 32-3400 rpm. Also smooth at very light throttle. I notice the problem the most at low moderate to mod-heavy throttle. Very annoying to cruise at 75-80 mph when it is doing it especially with a trailer. With my B1, i run 9 psi boost at 75, with the stock turbo it is more like 14 psi. Feels worse with the stocker.
I remember reading a paper by somebody on here that thought the problem was related to the boost maps being out of sync with the throttle position. Something about with the bigger injectors and boxes requiring a lot less throttle to get the required amount of fuel to cruise down the road. Therefor the computer was confused because it was seeing too high of boost for a given throttle position. It was therefor always trying to cut the fuel back. Does that make any sense? They mentioned that bigger turbos tended to tame the issue a bit. I dont know, i just remember reading something and thinking nothing i could do about it, so why worry. But it is very annoying and because i have continued to go bigger with everything, it has become more noticeable. Basically, I am going to try the catcher and hope for the best. If it doesn't work, and i can trace it to anything else, I am going to p-pump the truck. Sorry for the long post.
Typically, I do not notice the problem if temps are above 65 degrees. It is usually intermittent if at all between about 60 and 65 degrees. Below 60 degrees, it is usually always there, very annoying below 40.
Sounds to me like the factory change in timing the ECM/PCM is designed to do below a certain ambient temperature - yours seems to have other issues triggered by that event...
Yours would seem to come in too early - might be interesting to disable the temp sensor circuit that triggers that function with a "dummy" sensor setup to fool the ECM, and see if the problem changes or disappears...
Sounds to me like the factory change in timing the ECM/PCM is designed to do below a certain ambient temperature - yours seems to have other issues triggered by that event...
Yours would seem to come in too early - might be interesting to disable the temp sensor circuit that triggers that function with a "dummy" sensor setup to fool the ECM, and see if the problem changes or disappears...
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rubberneck,
Have you been able to talk with ChrisW? If my memory serves me right, your problem does sound exactly like the problem he had. The ECM... might be or might not, the only way to know for sure is to swap in a different, good ECM.
FYI, I've seen SEVERAL ECM's affected by the same illness ChrisW's had. Looks like it's not so uncomon...
Oh, yeah, just to be clear, ChrisW's problem was not solved by the CaTCHER SW ! The problem was the memory chips in his ECM.
Another question rubberneck, would it be possible for you to have a dealer read out the Software version you have in your ECM? It's a simple thing with a DRBIII not more than a couple minutes... .
Marco
Have you been able to talk with ChrisW? If my memory serves me right, your problem does sound exactly like the problem he had. The ECM... might be or might not, the only way to know for sure is to swap in a different, good ECM.
FYI, I've seen SEVERAL ECM's affected by the same illness ChrisW's had. Looks like it's not so uncomon...
Oh, yeah, just to be clear, ChrisW's problem was not solved by the CaTCHER SW ! The problem was the memory chips in his ECM.
Another question rubberneck, would it be possible for you to have a dealer read out the Software version you have in your ECM? It's a simple thing with a DRBIII not more than a couple minutes... .
Marco
I had heard that TST boxes fuel real harsh and was set on running a comp for the adjustibility so I sent my C'er back to bob to reflash special. Now everyone seems to be downing the comp, and not just the nomal crowd others Too. So im in the I don't want to commit to the C'er +blue chip APB or JVD combo cause the wifey don't have the fine right foot skill it takes for the C'er, BUT the comp gives me the willies BOAT. ARRRR
I guess the Question For all is- THE BOTTOM LINE question:
If the timing causes all the side affects is it really needed? What about fuel only boxes how do they run alone with biger sticks? Whould a BC FMS not take the place of all this other hoopla at least on topend?
Fuel only Setup owners comment please!
I guess the Question For all is- THE BOTTOM LINE question:
If the timing causes all the side affects is it really needed? What about fuel only boxes how do they run alone with biger sticks? Whould a BC FMS not take the place of all this other hoopla at least on topend?
Fuel only Setup owners comment please!
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WOW, rivercat, MAN that's a question!
Let me put it this way. Timing helps in EGT's, a little with MPG's and depending on how it's done with spool up. Advanced timing is also needed for better high RPM power.
So is it NEEDED? That depends upon what you want to do...
Can the timing be left where the factory has it set to? No doubt, the trucks run and perform good in stock trim. Yet, different timings can make it perform better.
The real question is, HOW the timing is altered.
I don't want to add anything else.
Marco
I feel much better cause my IAT must have been bad/out of specs. for a while and I just caught it today when it popped the CEL at startup P-0113 IAT VOLTAGE TOO HIGH. So I changed it and truck runs much better. It never seemed to get the snap I wanted when I whent to M4s just lots of smoke, Even more smoke earlier with the C'er seemed to loose power with the lack of air from the Hx-35. Then when I whent to the PS 62 it smoked a little less hard on the bottom but then turned gray after spoolup and whould huff gray as long as you held it. Now it starts with a light cloud till it lights and then turns to a light black-haze- all with enough snap to spin the tires, NICE.
I never woulda figured the IAT input could throw everything out of whack so bad but I guess BIG sticks amlifiy every little change in fueling...
Sorta On topic. sorry JWick,
Marco
Go on enlightening all of us with your extensive knowledge of the fine art of timing/fuel curves.
I never woulda figured the IAT input could throw everything out of whack so bad but I guess BIG sticks amlifiy every little change in fueling...
Sorta On topic. sorry JWick,
Marco
Go on enlightening all of us with your extensive knowledge of the fine art of timing/fuel curves.
Marco said:
Marco, no, i haven't been able to talk to him yet, my computer is down, and i only get a few minutes at work to check this thread out, but i am going to try.
Marco said:
Yeah, i have been reading about this since i bought my truck.
Marco said:
I have been wanting to find a good stock ECM to swich in, but the only people i know with a similar truck to mine, have not been willing to let me "borrow" their ECM. Kind of understandable i suppose.
I am planning on buying a core from BOB to have you reflash, as i do not want anything to do with my stock ECM just in case it is bad. My hope is that the new ECM fixes it, and then the stocker will get tossed in the junk pile on top of my toolbox.
Marco said:
Unfortunately probably not, not unless somebody reading this relatively near me has an in with a local dealer. I do not have a friendly relationship with either the place i bought it, or the other local dealership. (I tried having both places diagnose this problem when truck was under warranty and neither gave a crap. when i got bent about it they told me they could not duplicate problem and washed hands of it. ) Remember, it is very slight in stock trim, HP enhancers make it worse. Cant very well take it in making 500hp and bi$$h cause it's running funny can I. LOL
On edit, Just thought of something.
i may have the version on a sticker that they put on the top of the poewer distribution center when they reflashed it the first time i complained of the issue, I'll check when i get home.
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OH yeah, something else. Today, it was 55-60 degrees all day, and no matter how hard i tried, I couldn't get it stumble at all. Ran like a friggin top. Go figure.
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