Factory Brake Controller ?

[HBarlow]

Wikopedia? Wikopedia is only as reliable as the individual who provided the definition. I could go on Wikopedia and post whatever nonsense I might choose to post but that wouldn't make it true or accurate.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Give up guys. You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Harvey knows everything about everything, truly a legend in his own mind.

In the end it all boils down to one thing even Harvey agrees on, the Factory Dodge controller does not work worth a dang, especially when comparing it to other controllers.

How the Ford and GM controllers hook up is really a moot point, what difference does it make? They both work based on the amount of braking force the driver is applying to the pickup's brakes via the brake pedal. Period. Does it really matter how? Maybe it's electronic, maybe it's hydraulic, maybe, just maybe there's a tiny little gnome with a micrometer sitting under the brake pedal measuring how far you pushed it... Does it matter??!!! Bottom line, it works! Dodge doesn't!

 

[FullerM]

I was trying to use the space provided by the stock unit,right now I have a cell phone holder instead of a brake controller. Dodge sells a face plate with the new control unit but you have to get the old face plate off and you have to take the dash apart to do that. Im tired of banging my knee on a brake control unit thats mounted under the dash. Has anyone takin the dash off on the side that butts up against the door?

 

[domehead]

I will stop by Ford and Gm dealers and look at the brake controller and connections this week and post what I find.



If you tow heavy and you have load on the trailer you want to beable to run the brake controller to lock your brakers down to help stop the truck and trailer. If you are empty you want less braking on the trailer.



If ABS was the way to go all big rigs would have ABS for the trailer which they do not. So if it is tied to the ABS function of the truck than you will be push into something you do not want to meet. The ABS systems are designed for the CAr/Truck not a trailer.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Actually, not to start another war, but big rigs DO have ABS on their trailers as well. As of March 1, 1998 new semi trailers are required by law to have ABS.

 

[JHumphries]

Putting ABS on a trailer would require every manufacturer to use the same signal for wheel speed. That's a lot of coordination.
I don't know how many new trailers are manufactured every year, but it would take years to replace all of them.

 

[RustyJC]

So, as I'm getting ready to head out for my first tow with the new truck, has anyone figured out just what the Dodge integrated brake controller is? Is it a ramped time-based controller, an inertial controller or ????



I'm fully expecting to come back disappointed and am prepared to place my order for a MaxBrake system when I get home. Shoulda kept my Jordan Ultima 2020 from my 2002, I guess.



Rusty

 

[craiggo]

Rusty,

Nobody knows... we've kicked the topic around several times and asked for input from a Dodge Engineer but no word. I suspect you will be disappointed with it. I have one on my '10 3500 SRW Crew and I have to say it's nothing compared to the one I had on my '06 Ford. I'm pulling a 9K travel trailer and not very often at that. It's OK, but not stellar. I'd be really unhappy were it not for the exhaust brake.

For those that tow full time, I could see why they would want to replace it but for me (weekend warrior) it's just not practical. They dropped the ball on this one though. I would have liked to have seen them use a brake pressure system with a paddle brake behind the steering wheel so you don't have to take your hand off the wheel to use it.

Also, if there was some easy way for use to simply turn up the power, that would be a good fix but I doubt that is possible. I may take mine out and have a look at it.

Craig

 

[BrianJ]

Wikopedia? Wikopedia is only as reliable as the individual who provided the definition. I could go on Wikopedia and post whatever nonsense I might choose to post but that wouldn't make it true or accurate.

Ok, then the Ford Commercial Truck build site has the same info. Is that sufficient for the omnipotent Harvey?



At least I took 10 minutes to research the information instead of posting blindly about something you obviously don't know as fact.

 

[HBarlow]

Give up guys. You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Harvey knows everything about everything, truly a legend in his own mind.

In the end it all boils down to one thing even Harvey agrees on, the Factory Dodge controller does not work worth a dang, especially when comparing it to other controllers.

How the Ford and GM controllers hook up is really a moot point, what difference does it make? They both work based on the amount of braking force the driver is applying to the pickup's brakes via the brake pedal. Period. Does it really matter how? Maybe it's electronic, maybe it's hydraulic, maybe, just maybe there's a tiny little gnome with a micrometer sitting under the brake pedal measuring how far you pushed it... Does it matter??!!! Bottom line, it works! Dodge doesn't!

Your insults are even less persuasive than your opinions.

I am a person who knows the difference between provable facts and unsubstantiated opinions so am not easily persuaded by some opinions expressed here.

If you had ever towed with a BrakeSmart or MaxBrake controller you would understand it IS NOT a moot point and it DOES make a large difference whether the brake controller actually operates directly off of brake line pressure or some electronic method of estimating or sensing inertial response to the driver's foot on his brake pedal.

 

[HBarlow]

I will stop by Ford and Gm dealers and look at the brake controller and connections this week and post what I find.

If you tow heavy and you have load on the trailer you want to beable to run the brake controller to lock your brakers down to help stop the truck and trailer. If you are empty you want less braking on the trailer.

If ABS was the way to go all big rigs would have ABS for the trailer which they do not. So if it is tied to the ABS function of the truck than you will be push into something you do not want to meet. The ABS systems are designed for the CAr/Truck not a trailer.

I'm interested in reading about what you learn. Is it even possible to see the hydraulic brake master cylinder and lines on a Furd or GM with all the other crap under their hoods?

 

[Powder Extreme]

If you had ever towed with a BrakeSmart or MaxBrake controller you would understand it IS NOT a moot point and it DOES make a large difference whether the brake controller actually operates directly off of brake line pressure or some electronic method of estimating or sensing inertial response to the driver's foot on his brake pedal.

Hey Harvey, NEWS FLASH! The Max Brake isn't strictly hydraulic, it uses an electronic pressure transducer to "read" the amount of hydraulic pressure being applied by the master cylinder then calculating that into an electronic signal the controller itself uses to determine how much brake voltage and amperage to apply to the trailer. Obviously there is not a brake line with fluid in it running all the way to the controller. Guess what? GM uses the EXACT SAME METHOD! Lemme guess, you don't believe me... Well, here is a link to the actual patent granted to DELPHI Technologies (I assume you know Delphi is is a supplier for GM) The patent has an excellent write up of exactly how the integrated transducer works with several pictures etc.



I can't speak for Ford, but I would certainly think this is "actual proof" and not just some opinion. Hydraulic brake master cylinder with integral pressure transducer



Oh, and BTW, in your quest to "keep the silent reader well informed and conquer any misinformation and opinions" you screwed up in the latest TDR magazine. A member was asking about the aftermarket wiring harness for installing a trailer plug inside the bed of the pickup. You stated it is the same harness used on previous model years. It IS NOT the same harness, Dodge changed the rear plug in 2010, the new Dodge in fact uses the same Valley Part #30133 wiring harness that Ford and GM have been using for 10+ years. It took me about 5 minutes of research talking to people that have actually installed that harness in a 2010 Dodge before purchasing the harness for my 2010 Dodge.



I would have thought you would take the time to research this yourself before putting misinformation in print for thousands of readers to see.



So for you being "a person who knows the difference between provable facts and unsubstantiated opinions so am not easily persuaded by some opinions expressed here" you sure have a way of spouting off your own WRONG opinions and telling everybody else they are wrong.

 

[Powder Extreme]

If ABS was the way to go all big rigs would have ABS for the trailer which they do not. So if it is tied to the ABS function of the truck than you will be push into something you do not want to meet. The ABS systems are designed for the CAr/Truck not a trailer.

This is a direct quote from a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration published July of 2010:



Executive Summary

This report presents a statistical analysis of crash data in order to determine the effectiveness of antilock brakes in tractor-trailer combination vehicles. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 121, Air Brake Systems, mandates antilock braking systems on virtually all new air-braked vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or greater. ABS is required on tractors manufactured on or after March 1, 1997, and air-braked semitrailers and single-unit trucks manufactured on or after March 1, 1998.





The entire document can be read here:http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811339.pdf



Now its CONCRETE PROOF and not just my opinion.



Cheers

 

[domehead]

This is a direct quote from a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration published July of 2010:



Executive Summary

This report presents a statistical analysis of crash data in order to determine the effectiveness of antilock brakes in tractor-trailer combination vehicles. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 121, Air Brake Systems, mandates antilock braking systems on virtually all new air-braked vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or greater. ABS is required on tractors manufactured on or after March 1, 1997, and air-braked semitrailers and single-unit trucks manufactured on or after March 1, 1998.





The entire document can be read here:http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811339.pdf



Now its CONCRETE PROOF and not just my opinion.



Cheers

Thank you for providing that information and I will read it. But you sound like someone that has an axe to grind and I do not think this is the place to do it.



The next question I have for you I just purchased a 10 ton trailer new and it does not have ABS it stickly electric so if it applies to the big rigs why not the smaller trailers.

 

[craiggo]

I'm interested in reading about what you learn. Is it even possible to see the hydraulic brake master cylinder and lines on a Furd or GM with all the other crap under their hoods?

As I stated earlier in this thread, MINE WAS LEAKING AND HAD TO BE SERVICED!



Yes you can see it, especially when they leak.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Light duty pickups and trailers aren't as tightly regulated as commercial vehicles. Not even close. Semi's are forced to follow some pretty strict guidelines in order to be legal, and they are checked on a very regular basis for compliance. In turn, it's easier to place Federal Mandates on equipment. It's basically the same mandate that cars have requiring airbags and abs etc. only there are many more of them.

As far as trailers go, every semi trailer on the road is required to meet federal specifications or they can't be licensed etc. The trailer manufactures are already working with the government to make sure guidelines are met. It's pretty easy for the gov't to tell them "starting next year all new trailers must also have this... " There really aren't that many brands of semi trailers when you compare them to the hundreds maybe thousands of people building light duty trailers. None of which have commercial guidelines they must follow. There are DOT rules in place about lighting, braking, etc. but I've seen numerous trailers that don't meet the basic guidelines, basically because there is no enforcement in action.

As far as an Axe to grind, I guess I'm sick of Harvey spouting off with comments about how wrong other people are and how they don't know what they're talking about etc. several of which that have been directed at me. So I'm posting actual, substantiated facts.

 

[HBarlow]

Hey Harvey, NEWS FLASH! The Max Brake isn't strictly hydraulic, it uses an electronic pressure transducer to "read" the amount of hydraulic pressure being applied by the master cylinder then calculating that into an electronic signal the controller itself uses to determine how much brake voltage and amperage to apply to the trailer. Obviously there is not a brake line with fluid in it running all the way to the controller. Guess what? GM uses the EXACT SAME METHOD! Lemme guess, you don't believe me... Well, here is a link to the actual patent granted to DELPHI Technologies (I assume you know Delphi is is a supplier for GM) The patent has an excellent write up of exactly how the integrated transducer works with several pictures etc.

I can't speak for Ford, but I would certainly think this is "actual proof" and not just some opinion. Hydraulic brake master cylinder with integral pressure transducer

Oh, and BTW, in your quest to "keep the silent reader well informed and conquer any misinformation and opinions" you screwed up in the latest TDR magazine. A member was asking about the aftermarket wiring harness for installing a trailer plug inside the bed of the pickup. You stated it is the same harness used on previous model years. It IS NOT the same harness, Dodge changed the rear plug in 2010, the new Dodge in fact uses the same Valley Part #30133 wiring harness that Ford and GM have been using for 10+ years. It took me about 5 minutes of research talking to people that have actually installed that harness in a 2010 Dodge before purchasing the harness for my 2010 Dodge.

I would have thought you would take the time to research this yourself before putting misinformation in print for thousands of readers to see.

So for you being "a person who knows the difference between provable facts and unsubstantiated opinions so am not easily persuaded by some opinions expressed here" you sure have a way of spouting off your own WRONG opinions and telling everybody else they are wrong.

Yes, I know a bit about transducers for sensing brake line pressure. I have posted about how they function as part of my BrakeSmart controller since about 2002 when I installed the BrakeSmart controller in my first Dodge-Cummins.

I don't do ANY research on Furd or Government Motors trucks. I have ZERO interest in owning one and no interest in reading about them. Your reference above is the first information I have read about GM/Delphi's brake controller other than opinions expressed by owners which are usually incorrect.

I'm convinced. Your reference above is pretty clear. If Government Motors pickup trucks use the Delphi integrated transducer to actuate their factory brake controller it is a true hydraulic pressure actuated controller like those used by BrakeSmart first and then MaxBrake.

The text indicates Delphi has designed and manufactured a brake master cylinder with the transducer in the master cylinder instead of attached externally like the BrakeSmart which was designed and manufactured back around 2000-2001 or the MaxBrake which hit the market about three years ago.

I appreciate your interest and appreciation for my posts here in TDR but I'll have to disappoint you. I can't take credit for articles in the TDR. I am not a TDR writer. A few months ago a fellow TDR member inquired about a way to extend his seven pin receptacle into the pickup bed. I expressed a one sentence opinion that I didn't know for sure but was pretty confident that the long-used fifth wheel extension harness sold by eTrailer.com would also work in the 2010 Dodge because I doubted that Dodge had changed the old seven pin connector. It turned out that my guess and opinion was incorrect. My good friend Bill Stockard, who IS a TDR editor, also held the same opinion and published the original question and my answer in TDR. Bill told me later he had originally agreed with me and learned after the TDR magazine was published that we were both incorrect. That's okay with me. I have found that the only way to avoid ever making a mistake is to do (or write) nothing. And even failure to do something can later turn out to have been the wrong decision. But thanks for your interest in my posts even though I am occasionally wrong.

 

[domehead]

Light duty pickups and trailers aren't as tightly regulated as commercial vehicles. Not even close. Semi's are forced to follow some pretty strict guidelines in order to be legal, and they are checked on a very regular basis for compliance. In turn, it's easier to place Federal Mandates on equipment. It's basically the same mandate that cars have requiring airbags and abs etc. only there are many more of them.



As far as trailers go, every semi trailer on the road is required to meet federal specifications or they can't be licensed etc. The trailer manufactures are already working with the government to make sure guidelines are met. It's pretty easy for the gov't to tell them "starting next year all new trailers must also have this... " There really aren't that many brands of semi trailers when you compare them to the hundreds maybe thousands of people building light duty trailers. None of which have commercial guidelines they must follow. There are DOT rules in place about lighting, braking, etc. but I've seen numerous trailers that don't meet the basic guidelines, basically because there is no enforcement in action.



As far as an Axe to grind, I guess I'm sick of Harvey spouting off with comments about how wrong other people are and how they don't know what they're talking about etc. several of which that have been directed at me. So I'm posting actual, substantiated facts.

Powder,



How does the ABS work on the trailer for the big rigs if the tractor was made prior to 1998?

 

[Powder Extreme]

Powder,



How does the ABS work on the trailer for the big rigs if the tractor was made prior to 1998?

The federal mandate for tractors was 1997. Unfortunately prior to that although the tractor may have abs, it may or may not work with the trailer. Those rigs are grandfathered in.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Harvey, I've watched you make offhanded comments, cheap shots, and snide remarks to me and other members for months. You never seem to miss a chance to tell somebody they're wrong. Even when you may be wrong yourself. Your stupid little comments that only you think are cute are annoying. So, since I had about 20 minutes to kill and the debate about how brake controllers in GM and Ford work has been going on so long, I took the time to research it.

Everytime I or somebody else expressed an opinion about them you were quick to make some comment saying GM and Ford don't work that way, etc. When another member posted some info he felt to be correct, you ridiculed and made fun of him.

Making fun of others such as you did, especially when you are the one who is wrong, struck a nerve with me. So I responded and backed my claims up with proof, with the hope of ending the arguement and prevent you from making fun of other members regarding this subject.