Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) FASS cust service junk??

[ROADWARRIOR]

Question ??? Are the individuals that are experiencing the hard start problems noticing this with an almost empty tank The reason I ask this, is that I have a FASS system also and have 100,000 plus on it. The only time I experience a hard start problem is when my tank is almost empty with the nose of my truck pointed up hill in my drive way. If the tank is almost empty and the nose of the truck is down hill, there is no problem.



This might be off the subject for your individual circumstances but one never know, there might be something. In my case what I have determined is that with the truck pointed up hill with an almost empty tank, I get a drain down from the over pressure return line on the VP. In theory the return line drains down and allows a bubble of air to creep into the VP. With the nose pointed down hill, since air rises and fuel settles, this drain down of the over pressure return does not happen.



Would this scenario fit any of your problem with hard start?? If yes then you might want to check the over pressure return check valve for proper seating.



"Money is useful, but knowledge is priceless"



-Wally-

Mine does it with a full tank. I also have the pipe stand pickup in my tank.



Dan

 

[KBalzuweit]

Just wanted say that I agree the customer service stinks. I if I had it to do over again I would NOT buy a FASS. The funny thing was last time I called them I got brushed off and the woman gave me 3 dealers #'s. The first 2 said due to problems dealing with FASS they no longer sell or service there products. The third dealer went into detail with me about how they operate and was very unhappy with FASS. Pretty funny they do not even know who sells there stuff. Luckily I can get a NAPA filter that works on it. If anyone wants to trade a pump only for a full FASS system PM me.

 

[dieseldude]

thank you guys for the responses we think that the more people that post on this thread the better the chance we might see a change so rally up and let us all hear your concerns!!!

 

[LowFly]

Response

9-30-05



Concerning customer service complaints on the TDR thread;



We, Diesel Performance Products, promote “ALL” retail business through our dealer network to provide better customer service! We are confident that everyone involved is best serviced in this manner. DPP feels as though we have given our dealer’s proper knowledge and support to promote and service our line of fuel pumps. Before a business becomes part of the DPP team we send them; Dealer Criteria, a Description Catalog and a Dealer Pricing Schedule. One of the requirements found in the Dealer Criteria is;



Must be able to service their customers. We have a trouble shooting manual available, which is great to email or fax to the customer requesting assistance. We are available to assist the dealers in helping service their customers if they do not have the answers, we do this through the dealer and not direct with the customer!!



Dealers receive appropriate troubleshooting guides to refer to. These have proven to be excellent references for those who choose to use them. We offer excellent assistance to our dealers so they in turn can assist their customers. DPP has decided to place this information on our website to accommodate all of our customers needs.



It has been our experience in most situations; there are problems with vehicles that will affect our product. Our dealer network is prepared to solve any of these problems. Our fueling products do not cause the errors that we encounter. Dealers are the only source for the customer to rely on to mend those appropriate problems. DPP does not manufacture or sell the items that we have found to be causing problems in our customers vehicles.



Diesel Performance Products produces high quality fuel pumps and systems. We understand that there can be human error in any production. Our products are accompanied with industry leading warranties.



We still believe that our dealers are more than well educated to problem-solve. It is our position that this is the most logical way to provide good customer service. We appreciate our customers bringing this matter to our attention and feel as though we have addressed it in a proper manner. We are always trying to improve quality, expand our product line, and provide support to our network of dealers so they can support their customers in a satisfactory way for all involved. We will address the hard start issue, which is directly copied out of our troubleshooting manual:





Section 6:

Starting



6a. Hard Starts



A. Usually the FASS only encounters hard starts on the 1998. 5 – 2002 Dodge Cummins with the VP44 injection pump. If this occurs it is usually on a VP44 with high mileage, and/or a VP44 that has been subjected to around 5psi of fuel pressure or less. It is more likely to occur when the weather is warmer/hot.



Explanation of Diaphragm: The diaphragm in the VP44 is designed to move about . 5mm with proper fuel pressure (about 7psi min. ). When the VP44 is subject to about 5psi or less the diaphragm can move up to 2mm, an increase in movement of 4 times more than what it was designed to move. With this type of movement the diaphragm will eventually develop stress cracks thru out the body of the diaphragm. One job of this diaphragm is to separate low fuel pressure and high fuel pressure in the housing of the VP44, when the cracks are present this separation does not occur. This will lead to hard starts even with a stock OEM lift pump!!



Here is a simple test:



Note: Not all failed pumps with broken diaphragms will start with low to no supply fuel. Sometimes the diaphragm is so broken that charging pressure is not able to build to a level that allows the pump to deliver fuel.



Try starting the vehicle without waiting for the fuel pump to cycle. Meaning when you turn the key to the on position immediately engage starter.



Or:



Unplug the FASS pump or remove the fuse so the FASS pump does not operate. Note: If the engine operates without fuel pressure for a period of time the VP44 will be destroyed. Understanding this condition, start the truck. If the truck starts shut it off immediately!!!! This test just indicated that the better/increased fuel pressure from the FASS pump is overriding the thinner diaphragm and/or cracked o’rings surrounding the diaphragm in the VP44. There are four solutions to this:



1. Repair the VP44. VP44’s were manufactured with a thinner diaphragm which can and will cause hard starts with hot weather and or higher fuel pressures. Thicker diaphragm’s for the VP44 were released around 2003 for correcting this situation. Remember it doesn’t matter if the VP44 has the thinner or thicker diaphragm, if the VP44 has been subjected to a failing transfer pump (lower

Section 6:

Starting



6a. Hard Starts - Continued



fuel pressure) or a failed transfer pump it will lead to this problem. The damage was done by the failing or failed lift pump before the FASS was installed.



2. Lower the fuel pressure from the FASS system. Early FASS Fuel System units for the 24 Valve Dodge (Serial # 1378) came out with the PS-1001 spring, usually around 10 – 11psi. Later units (Serial # 1379) came out with the PS-1002 spring, usually around 16psi. The cost for the spring is only $7. 50.



3. Most customers prefer the higher pressure from the PS-1002 spring. If this is the case we recommend an oil pressure switch (Honeywell Hobbs part# 78143) on the ground side. This is done by placing the oil pressure switch in the oil gallery (on top of the oil filter). Then disconnect the ground from the ECM and (if it has it) the ground to the battery from the FASS wires. The ground wire is then connected to the oil pressure switch. This will delay the FASS pump until the engine has 3 – 4 pounds of oil pressure.



4. WE DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS SOLUTION!! Place a manual on – off switch in the cab, this way you can turn the pump on after the engine starts.







We have discovered a restriction issue on a small percentage of trucks that could lead to the hard start issue. This can be found in the priming section of the trouble shooting manual which will be on our website soon or we can email it to you if requested.



DPP staff is trained to manufacture and maintain our products only. We rely on our dealers to handle all other vehicle problems. We strive to hold an open relationship with our dealer networks. We look forward to the feedback from both our dealers, which give the constant ability to deliver the best products and service. We feel as though they have the appropriate knowledge to best service their clients.



Thank you,

Have a great day,



Brad Ekstam

 

[RAJohnson]

IS your FASS control circuit working right? I have had the FASS 150 on my truck for more than two months, and have not had any starting problems at all, Cold or Hot, nose UP or Down. I would say make sure your pump cycles for a very short time when you first turn the key to the ON position. I am assuming you have a fuel pressure gauge. Mine takes the pressure to about 5psi and holds there due to the FASS turning off until the wait to start light goes out and I fire it. Then it goes to 17psi after I start it. If I bump the starter with out starting it after the first little FASS run time, the FASS will run up to full pressure for about 30 seconds and then turn off.



After reading Brads reply of trouble shooting the FASS, and seeing you have recently replaced the VP44 with a Hot Rod. I hope you are able to get this figured out. I will keep a watch on this post, so please keep us up to date.



Hope this helped. Or at least lets you know that not all FASS systems are having troubles. Love mine.

 

[JPoindexter]

Diesel Nut. in regards to the customer service i can somewhat relate with your frustration. i have a fass 150 and have had several problems with it. fluctuating pressure, fuses that fail, low pressure, and high pressure. on any given day if it is cold the pressure will be 17+, on a warm day it will be 13+. go figure. the dealer i purchased the fass from has tried to help but every time a problem comes up all i hear from dpp is it must be a problem with my truck. i have wasted 4+ days of my time off working on problems with my fass pump. lowered the tank for inspection and screen removal. installed a seperate ground wire. checked possible wire harness problems, replaced one brush and the caps, and have been stranded two times with a fass that does not work. both times the fass was found to be at fault. one fuse melted and the other time the fuse holder had to be cleaned. to date the vendor i purchased the fass from said he will exchange it and i have been waiting for that for three weeks. it is frustrating for me to work on a product that should have been correct from the start. for the record i have owned the fass for approx 10 months.

 

[KBalzuweit]

Well as far as customer service goes, its NOT THE DEALERS. I have called the "company" and it is just stupid that they build the product but pawn off all tech help on the dealers. The dealers are just that dealers, they did not design or build it. GET A TECH GUY TO HELP OUT THE PEOPLE THAT SPENT HARD EARNED MONEY ON YOUR PRODUCT!! I still think its funny the dealers they sent me to had nothing nice to say about the company :-laf !

 

[dieseldude]

thank you Brad for your info I hope that it really helps everyone, but as I am sure you have read the thread so you know I have replaced the vp and hard wired the trigger switch to the #9 (ecm hot lead) and I am still having the problem. this weekend I'm going to am going to try to moving it to the fuse for the power windows so it goes off when I turn the key to the start position maybe that will help. I haven't been able to pin point if it is high pressure or something else, when I drive from place to place I try to time it just right and if I do it the same way every time it doesn't start the same. some times it starts hard and then the next time it starts just fine, any one have an idea?

 

[Diesel Nut]

I'm all in with KB. First, I didn't know all trouble shooting went through the dealer. Second, I EXPECT the manufacturer of a product to know how it works! What ticks it off wahat makes it happy. How to make the thing work right. I don't expect Joe Shmoe Garage that is a dealer for them and is a good guy to work with to know the inner workings and foulups of ANY mod. If they do, more power to em, but I usually got to the manufaturer for issues. What makes DPP any different? So, you don't want to deal with your customers? Well, just because it worked for Banks don't mean it will for DPP. I don't think this is the right approach for a company who wants to sell and become popular with a membership like this. READ THIS THREAD! We don't want to be sluffed off. If we have problems, Why shouldn't the manufaturer and designer know how to fix it?

 

[RRotzal]

I can't thank you guys enough, I came searching tonight LOOKING for feedback on FASS. I'm soooo glad to have found this thread as I now know which pump NOT to buy. thanks, Rich

 

[Todd T]

Mallory 140 workin just fine here.



May i make a suggestion Brad? maybe put a list of top 5-10 dealers and thier links to them on your website. Make it a competition or lottery, or hell just siwtch them up periodically to give them all some publicity. Also an FAQ with the manual you just spoke of would help the guys who are stuck working on their trucks after hours and cannot contact a dealer directly.



the DPP site is a laundry list of why we should buy from DPP. if you are encouraging a dealer network then promote such!

 

[kscheffler]

FASS now has another non-buyer of their product after reading this threat and other threats; thanks to the TDR crew...

 

[catoiler]

Call me cheap but I cannot justify spending that much on a pump and filters. I bought a filter housing and bracket from Fleetguard and am using a cat fuel filter on it. As soon as I get some time I an going to redo the fuel lines from the tank to the pump and to the cp3 and eliminate the in tank pump. I should be in the $350. 00 range when done.

 

[BDanner]

"VP44 is talkin to ya"

A very positive fact with the FASS customer service is that somebody answers the phone, try this with your new HP or Dell computer. That girl on the other end did feel my pain. In many more words than this he pretty much told me what I did not want to hear. "YOU need a new injector pump. "



The FASS pump is not everyone. If your the type who buys a new truck and installs an Edge Comp as your first mod, Pass this one. For the guy who adds a fuel gauge, air intake, exhaust and maybe a transmission this is for you. If you purchase the FASS, you will quickly recognize that it is a very well built and high quality piece of equiptment.



On the negative side I know each of us does not quite get the answer we would like to hear, as most of our trucks were performing fine on a hot restart before the addition of the FASS filter. Over the many years of reading various posts on our trucks I have learned that they all have different personalities and stages of growth as they age. One thing that is the most obvious is that there are 2 types of Ram owners: The one who has replaced one or more VP44'sa and those that still have yet to replace a VP44.



More trucks than not probably run just fine with the FASS pump. There seems to be several variables to our hot start issues with just as many fixes. This does not appear to be a one size fits all fix. Most of us don't like to hear that our injector pump is dying after just spending $400-$700 for a modification that is to cure a known weak component in our trucks.



My 2001 3500 has had a FASS on for 6 weeks. At the same time I added a fuel gauge. If you did not have a fuel gauge prior to a lift pump replacement how is one is to know if damage has occurred to the VP44 due to the failing lower pressures of the OEM Carter pump?



I towed hard and fast, climbed hills never knowing, always wondering what my fuel pressure reading was. I had that little feeling of uneasiness one day of a momentary cutting out or what some call dead pedal while under heavy load at 70mph. I felt as though my truck was slowly over time loosing it's strength up hills. The cure in this owners mind was to quickly replace the lift pump before I should suffer a second VP44 replacement. I chose the FASS.



The sad truth is I will not know the actual pressure of the pump that I have replaced. TDR membership should require the installation of a fuel gauge before we are allowed to post online!



Fact 1: My truck starts fine cold. I would deduct then then that this is not a high pressure issue. Some would tell me I should only use 6-7psi at startup.



Fact 2: My truck cranks and does not restart when the temperature is in the 80's. It cranks longer but sometimes restarts in the 60-70's, though not always.



Fact 3: My truck always restarts when it is hot as hell, if I raise the hood and pull the FASS fuse out of it's well made little holder on the firewall.



Fact 4: This is the newest experiment in my individual quest for an answer. Today my truck was failing miserably on hot restarts with the FASS. I remembered reading threads about Fedex VP44's with hot computers, failing copper circuit boards due to ambient heat buildup. I drove home turned off the engine and pulled out the garden hose and ran my 56 degree well water over the injector pump for 5 minutes. Leaving the FASS fuse in it's place, I turned the key... ...



Did it restart? This is what happened next. That Cummins fired on the first little taste of diesel fuel.



Fact 5: My truck on a cold start with FASS has the tiniest, almost unnoticable puff of white smoke that dissipates quickly.



Fact 6: I decided to start adding a fuel lubricant additive this tank. I left the truck idling and walked across the street to see my neighbor. I was allowing my EGT's to drop down in temp to a safe shut down level! Did I mention I also have a pyrometer?



After some conversation he takes note of my truck and says, "That things sounds quieter since you have worked on it. "



I have read posts of Cummins loosing their rattle with a dying VP44 and regaining that ominous tone with a replacement.





In summary we all make changes and add mods that what we believe to be a final fix, only to discover that we have uncovered the next weak link of an intricate puzzle that is a Dodge Ram. i. e. Luke's links, steering stabilizer, '03 trackbar and it will still wander. Add ball joints, tie rod ends, PSC steering gear box, new tires and it still wanders. Any one of these may fix your wandering front end and not mine.



It is all to easy to say I am not adding twins because I read a post about Jerry's detonating. These parts and ideas are what make our trucks unique and usually more powerful than our competition.



Let's not be to fast to cast stones at this product, but keep the thoughts flowing. This is what makes TDR a great knowledge source and exchange.

Sometimes you just need to talk to someone and just be heard.





... ... ... ... "NOW somebody HELP me!!!!!" just kidding... ... ... ... ... ... ..... :-{}



... ... ... ... ... ... ... Me thinks I need a new VP44!!... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .







Bruce in Northside Virginia

____________________________________________________________________

 

[RAJohnson]

Well stated and said Bruce

 

[dieseldude]

yes well stated but when I read brad'ssuggestion on getting a new vp44 I told them the same thing I will tell I just installed a new hot rod pump and if it is bad I will be raising a lot of hell!!!! I also e-mailed brad for the flow issue troubleshooting the day after he posted his reply and still no response. how long does it take to send something you said you would send if e-mailed?

 

[AHughes]

Brad Brad, That Posting Stinks! When You Manufacture Something Like A Fuel System You Should Know Exactly What The Cause Of Hard Starts Is And What Might Be Causing It To Relay To The Retail Buyer. Why Should We Depend On The Retailer That Sells Your Products To Answer These Technical Questions? You, The Manufacturer Should Be The Ultimate Source Of Information. I Just E Mailed You About One Of Your Pumps To Install On My Truck Now I'm Thinking I'll Stick With My Own Setup. I'll Be Checking With Air Dog Now.

 

[JCyrbok]

happy and disappointed at the same time.

I have had no problems with hard starts on my 95gph model either hot, cold or low fuel level. Has not been loud or had any problems and I am generally happy with the FASS. (Ticking time bomb maybe?)



That being said, as soon as I get my funds up the FASS will become a paperweight and I will go with a RASP system, I have heard far fewer problems with the RASP as opposed to the FASS. This thread on customer service has really soured me on DPP and the FASS system. In my mind Customer Service is KING!



But guess what? Most have us have already bought the FASS and there for DPP/Brad already have our money, so where is the incentive? Oh Well!



J-

 

[PRout]

I just tried to order some small items for maintenance of my 2 yr old fass (heavier spring, spare brushes, upgraded wire harness), and ask a couple questions. Was quite unpleasantly surprised.



After 4 phone calls (3 to dealers and 1 to the main office - referred back to dealers), basically got nothing but run-around. Didnt even get to order my stupid little spring!



I guess if youre not buying a 600 dollar piece, they dont have time anymore.



And No, Im not going to add shims under the spring to raise pressure like one dealer recommended.



Basically Im kind of dissapointed that its hard to get parts for the system, but its not really a big deal. If they dont have time, I wont have time to buy from them - anymore.



If my 600-800 (advertised) mile pump motor looses a brush and I don't have spares, then, Im gonna be P. I. S. S. E. D.



(kinda wishing I just mounted 2 stock lift pumps back by the tank, and used valves for quick failover)

 

[GCULP]

thanks fellas, just helped me decide which pump NOT to buy. In this day and age, how can a company that provides such a vital component of our fuel systems, be so unwilling to provide customer service.

DPP feels as though we have given our dealer’s proper knowledge and support to promote and service our line of fuel pumps.

DPP, if you're listening, this approach is not working, you just lost another customer before I even purchased anything.