FASS vs. Preporator, same truck same day same dyno.

[Roger rodbolt]

I agree with the two previous posts regarding a P-pump conversion on a 24 valve, I've done the P-pump on my own 24V. Driveability and performance is very good until ~400hp with a single turbo, then look out, there are compromises. All of the truly high horsepower P7100 trucks that I've seen do not use the stock or stock type piston plunger lift pumps. IMHO a stock P7100 lift on a VP-44 is not a solution (rather a disaster) not only because of the fuel pressure spikes but because the VP-44 needs constant flow for lubrication and cooling. A mechanical lift pump could terminate the VP-44 if you pushed the clutch after a high rpm run. The fuel flow (demand) at the injection pump can actually INCREASE momentary - off throttle, while a mechanical lift pump drops flow and pressure immediately to idle rate. Larry

 

[RonA]

You are correct about the constant pressure. But I am once again curious about a way to run a steady pressure with a mechanical lift pump. A cylinder to use as a resevoir with a bladder and a bleed off valve. Kind of like a water pressure tank that us country folk have for our well water. I was told a mechanical lift pump ran around 20psi at idle and 30+ at full throttle. If you had a pressurized resevoir that was supplied by the mechanical pump and would bleed off the excess pressure through an overflow valve, it seems like it would be easy to run a steady pressure without spikes. the pressure in the tank would handle the momentary drop that you speak of.

Ron

 

[RonA]

Sorry,

my last couple of posts are off topic and need to be moved to the "things to do when You have way to much free time" forum.

 

[CEkstam]

Preporator AirDog

I see there is a lot of conversation about the concept of air/vapor in fuel, the potential effect to engine performance and a couple of products on the market that ?? does or does not remove it.



First, let me tell you that I am the inventor of the Fuel Preporator and the father of the person making the fass system. So much for that!



Here are some of the other facts: Diesel has the ability, as does any liquid, to entrain air. The higher the viscosity, the greater the ability of the fluid to entrain air bubbles. Tests done at the University of Illinois, of which there is a complete report(call me if you would like a copy) determine that the sloshing action entraining air in diesel fuel reaches a saturation point at about 1 1/2 hour of on road travel. Additionally, a pump operating under a vacuum or pressure flow insufficient to completely fill the pump at a given operating speed will cavitate. This is simply the fact that it does not fill. In the high vacuum of the cavitating pump, fuel vapor will boil off.



Good reading for this information is Cummin's Engine Service Topic 5-135 issued in 1965, explaining why fuel filters plumbed in on the vacuum side of a fuel pump are always only partially filled with fuel. Also, Caterpillar's Special Instruction 651-1250 published in 1990, explaining that "normally, diesel fuel contains about 10% air in solution, although the air is not visible".....



Diesel fuel, regardless of what fuel tank it is in, will entrain air, etc.



The air entrained from sloshing and the fuel vapor formed through cavitation, as any gas, is compressible. In the fuel injector, the presence of air/vapor causes a delay in the injection (retarded injection timing), which inturn results in a shorter power stroke. Also, low power, increased fuel consumption and increased exhaust emissions. Removing the entrained air from the fuel and stopping the pump cavitation by maintaining a positive pressure flow of fuel that exceeds the demand of the fuel pump, restores injection timing and engine performance back to the original design intention of the engine.



This is where Fuel Preporator comes in (and the smaller AirDog model for pickup trucks). Fuel Preporator is the only true air/fuel separation system on the market. The process to separate air/vapor from fuel as explained in our three patents that protect our product, in retrospect, is basic. The other system that claims to do the same thing is short of having the working functions that make the Fuel Preporator what it is. The JPreporator has a primary air separation system that can separate the air/vapor at all of the flows that the particular model is designed for. It also has a secondary air separation sysem that is very effective for removing the air/vapor from the interior of a filter when changed to replace the dirty/plugged old filter. The product manufactured by my son utilizes only the secondary air removal system. You can compare this by reading his patent application #10/783,055, filed Feb. 20, 2004 against my patent no. 5,746,184 that was filed June 17,1994 and issued May 5th 1998. The function of the secondary air separation is explained fully at column 10, lines 59 thru column 11, lines 5. Also, column 11 lines 31 thru 41.



The degradation, over time, of the diesel engine in performance in power output, fuel economy, and emissions is a result of the air/vapor present in the fuel that results in retarded injection timing. Removing these conditions with a functioning air/fuel separation delivery system can restore the performance of the diesel "in-use" diesel engine to the original designed performance spec's. The development of the "common rail" engine by the industry is the means of eliminating the injector lag that has lead to the performance degradation. Given this, even the common rail suffers from disrupted spray patterns from the presence of air/vapor in fuel. For more info, please feel free to call me at 877-463-4373.



The proper fuel filtration/delivery system can greatly enhance the performance of virtually all diesel engines and extend the life of the fuel injection system, even for the common rail engine. The Fuel Preporator AirDog was designed to make your diesel give you consisten and maximum performance, thanks!



I appreciate your time,



Charlie Ekstam

 

[PRout]

This is getting old.

 

[Murle]

Yea it is getting old... . All he wants to do is advertise how well his product works. I guess it like the old saying... . he who does not toot his own horn the same will not be tooted. Besisdes everyone here who has a FASS unit knows how good it really is.....

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

This is getting old.

Sales must be getting low... :{

 

[Huff N Puff]

Thankyou Mr Ekstam

Yea it is getting old... . All he wants to do is advertise how well his product works. I guess it like the old saying... . he who does not toot his own horn the same will not be tooted. Besisdes everyone here who has a FASS unit knows how good it really is.....

For a product that has worked really well for me,I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the differences, to others who may be interested. To those who aren't interested, do you have to be so disrespectful??

 

[Jetpilot]

Originally posted by Huff N Puff

For a product that has worked really well for me,I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the differences, to others who may be interested. To those who aren't interested, do you have to be so disrespectful??

Well said Merv.

 

[DieselMinded]

Preporator ,



Thanks for taking the time to post ... ..... Your insight to this topic is Greatly needed



This Is the reason I pay $$$$ to be on tdr You Get the ANSWERS from the SOURCES We have many companies with screen names on TDR I think this is great There input is what its all about and the freedom to support or not support a compitors product. (in A reasonable manner)



Please Do not FLAME the Creater Of our Aftermarket parts thats not too smart If they leave then you just have alot of people discussing products that have no idea what there talking about (DTR)



Now most TDR members dont act like they know more than they do thats what makes it great along with PROFESSIONAL INPUT







please PM me for my address so you can send me my free AIR DOG



DM



2002 SB CTD -----plenty of room for a AIR DOG

 

[Murle]

Preporator ,



Thanks for taking the time to post ... ..... Your insight to this topic is Greatly needed



This Is the reason I pay $$$$ to be on tdr You Get the ANSWERS from the SOURCES We have many companies with screen names on TDR I think this is great There input is what its all about and the freedom to support or not support a compitors product. (in A reasonable manner)



Please Do not FLAME the Creater Of our Aftermarket parts thats not too smart If they leave then you just have alot of people discussing products that have no idea what there talking about (DTR)



Now most TDR members dont act like they know more than they do thats what makes it great along with PROFESSIONAL INPUT







please PM me for my address so you can send me my free AIR DOG



DM



2002 SB CTD -----plenty of room for a AIR DOG

Sorry but you have not been here long enough to know that the Predorator is sounding like a broken record here. Some of us have been waiting for the results from people that have been given FREE Predorators to test against the FASS and have not posted the results. That has been over a year ago now. We feel the FASS is just a good if not better than the Predorators. Who knows? I know the FASS is cheaper and working fine for me. FASS does not cut down Predorators product,but I can't say that for Predorator. I feel that Predorator is blowing a bunch of SMOKE.

 

[DieselMinded]

after reading the specs on the 2 products i dont know why every one gets a fass it must be price ... . the air dog is made for our trucks the fass is not

you guys ack like there the same thing I just dont think you get it



Basic AirDog Air Removal / Fuel Filtration Process:



1. Diesel Fuel is drawn into the AirDog under a High Vacuum condition.

2. As the fuel enters the AirDog, it is pulled through the Water Separator Element to remove any large debris and water.

3. Following the Water Separator, the fuel is drawn through the AirDogs fuel pump.

* Up to this point, the fuel is under a High Vacuum. This causes the air bubbles in the fuel to grow in size due to the decreased atmospheric pressure.

* As the fuel passes through the water separator and fuel pump, many of these bubbles will join with each other to form even larger air bubbles.

4. Upon leaving the fuel pump, the fuel (now with larger air bubbles) passes into the AirDogs fuel filter.

* The filter media in the AirDog does not easily pass the air bubbles. Instead, they gather on the outside of the filter element (dirty side) until they become buoyant enough to rise to the top.

* Separated from the pressurized inlet, there is a regulated outlet passage on the "Dirty Side" of the filter where the air and fuel can be pushed out and back to the tank.

* The 6 Micron Filter Media is Key to the function of this setup as it allows little to no air to pass. Ekstam will have a 2 Micron media available sometime in the near future as well.

5. The fuel (and a few air bubbles under 6 micron in size) pass through the fuel filter media into the "Clean Side" of the filter.

* On the "Clean Side" of the filter, the air bubbles once again rise to the top where there is yet another regulated outlet passage that returns to the tank (note the gap between the threaded nipple and the standpipe)

6. "Clean" fuel is sent to the engine through the standpipe that picks up at the bottom of the fuel filter.



This above is NOT intended to be a highly detailed technical description of all of the AirDogs inner workings. Ekstam Worldwide holds several Federal Patents on the Air Separation technology they have been developing over the last 14 years. The newest of their Patents was granted in early 2004 to cover the advancements incorporated into the AirDog units.



Charles Ekstam (owner of Ekstam Worldwide and inventer of the Fuel Preporator) is more than willing to discuss the air separation process used in his products to whatever level of detail you desire. Please feel free to call him at 1-877-GO-DIESEL.



-----------------------------



MORE.....



http://www.ekstamworldwide.com/



Flow Rates



* AirDog FP80 (Standard) - 80 /90 gph*

* AirDog FP80HP (High Performance) - 120/130 gph*



AirDog standard equipment includes:



* AirDog Fuel Preporator with water, fuel filter (6 micron StrataPore(tm) Filter) and air/fuel separation system.

* Relay controlled wiring harness with low fuel pressure switch and indicator light to signal filter changes.

* Sturdy heavy duty steel mounting bracket assembly and bolts that mount directly to frame (No frame drilling required).

* All fuel lines and fuel line fittings and connectors to properly install the AirDog Fuel Preporator.

* 2 year limited warranty. Contact Ekstam Fuel Preporator, Inc for details.



MSRP

AirDog FP80 (Standard) MSRP: $749 - Introductory Price $679

FOB Jefferson City, Missouri or your local AirDog dealer



AirDog FP80HP (High Performance) MSRP: $795 - Introductory Price $719 FOB Jefferson City, Missouri or your local AirDog dealer



*Flow rates are calculated with standard fuel lines.



The Fuel Preporator®



Patented Fuel Preporator® overcomes the deficiencies of the traditional vacuum feed fuel filtration system to:



* eliminate virtually all entrained air/vapor from the fuel flow to the engine.

* deliver fuel at a consistent, positive pressure flow to meet the needs of the transfer pump at all times,

overcoming the effects of fuel filter plugging.

* restore injection timing to manufacturer-designed specifications in real world operating conditions.



-------------------------



If you can afford it its the way to go IMO





NOw the Fass -------------- Uhhhh-----------Its a pusher and a filter thats it not even designed for the CTD application



I may have not been here long enough to hear the truth too many times but I can under stand when theres a supreme product on the market



AND I HAVE NIETHER I HAVE THE EEP Basically The best part of the Fass AT 1/4 THE PRICE ... JUST TO HOLD ME OFF TILL i CAN JUSTIFY THE oUTRAGIOUS PRICE OF THE aIR dOG.



If you do searches you will find many more people who have more details about these two products other that one is red ands one is blue ... your talking about completely diffrent animals here.



THey have more diffences than similarities





Dm

 

[Murle]

QUOTE. . after reading the specs on the 2 products i dont know why every one gets a fass it must be price ... . the air dog is made for our trucks the fass is not

you guys ack like there the same thing I just dont think you get it



Well I guess 100's of us if not 1000's of us had better take or FASS off because it is not made for our Trucks.

Of couse the factory LP is made for our trucks and I guess it is better than the FASS... . NOT!!!!! Remember is is better to push fuel than to suck fuel. Also my FASS has 2 filters not just one and it does meet CTD application!

 

[DieselMinded]

I didnt say it wouldnt work obviuously it does ... ... just that Its no big deal It just a pump and filter Relax.



The air dog has high pressure release along with many other options that directly relate to our trucks application.



Your not going to see my point so just Enjoy your overpriced push pump and water seperator I hope you get many years out of it



Personally my buds FASS screwed his truck up it dont idle right and wont even hardly start up some times The truck was perfectly fine before the FASS ... . DONT think there are not any FASS horror stories.



Either is better than None



DM

 

[Murle]

If there was a point to make I would get it... . but there must not be a point. You have made statement against the FASS that I see to be unfounded.



Sorry but the FASS does have a high pressure release.



Sounds like to me your Bud's truck IP was going out when he change to the FASS. But of course the factory LP was designed for his truck and should not cause any problems. Giving a truck enough fuel to run on and it l will not screw up the engine. Yes I'm very happy with my FASS. I now have reliability over the factory LP. Also If I chose I can heat my fuel with my FASS. Don't need it here in Texas

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Personally my buds FASS screwed his truck up it dont idle right and wont even hardly start up some times The truck was perfectly fine before the FASS ... . DONT think there are not any FASS horror stories.







DM

I would like to hear more horror stories. My only problem with the preporator is the guy that sell them. As he continues on with his babble, I think its funny how, he claims to have invented the FASS system, and now that he must obviously doesn't own the FASS system ( never heard of the outcome of the court results ) hes mad cuz now he has to back track and say that what he designed back then... . now isn't any good. :-laf



Also, according to his web site, he makes more claims about what his unit does, but refused to back it up both on national tv and even to this day, ( to the best of my knowledge ) has yet to prove if the product he sells does what he says it does. False advertising here?



I have given up on waiting for the dyno reslults from those that over a year ago said they would do them after receiving a free preporator unit. I do believe there were some done out in California but since it didn't produce the results that Charles liked, they must not have done the install right.



One of Charles salesman stated to me that if you wanted horsepower, this is not the way to do it but at the same time, that is exactly what his web site says the unit does. That, tells me his salesman isn't sure what is going on and here he is trying to sell a unit that he isn't sure what it does. Go figure.



I guess if he would back up his claims about the product he sells, maybe I would have some respect for him and his product, but until then, not getting any respect from me.



IMO, the air dog is probably a good unit, as is the preporator 135a, which unit are you referring to DM? Do you know?



The air dog recently came out, the 135a has been out for a while and had the same basic set-up as the FASS.



Both systems are good and do as they are designed to do. We all here want the reliability of a pump, and I dont think you can go wrong with either. I dont know of anyone that has bought the units for horsepower, but rather have been bought for reliability. Some may have bought them for high HP trucks, to each his own. I'll see how long the FASS works and if it fails, maybe try the other. So far, no trouble with mine.

 

[DiTrani]

I can't understand why people can't simple state both sides of an argument without distorting the side they don't agree with (or the one they don't have a vested interest in).



Looking at available info, the FASS and the AirDog do largely the same thing. The AirDog looks like a more sophisticated unit, with 2-stage air removal vs the single-stage of the FASS, and some features better suited to our trucks. It's also more expensive (big surprise). They both appear to use the same pump. I can see either or neither as a defendable choice.

 

[TKilgore]

Honest question here.

How important is it to remove the air vs, providing a constant supply of fuel. I like the idea of the RASP but it doesn't remove air (I don't think anyway).

So if a box would correct the timing and the RASP would supply the fuel, how would that work as a solution?



Tom

 

[Hohn]

I love these threads. They crack me up.



To me, the only time one of these expensive options should be considered is when air separation is VERY important to you and you can afford it.



A cheap pump back by the tank will last a while, and as long as you have 2-3psi at WOT, you have enough fuel. Anything over 100gph is huge overkill and surely going to reduce pump life for internally bypassed pumps.



A cheap Summit pump that will meet your needs is less than $70. How many of these can you buy for the cost of a FASS/ Air dog??



I believe that the air separation of these units is a bona fide fact, and I'm sure they are going to be very reliable units.



I just question the price. Cut the price in half and I'd already have one or the other.



JLH

 

[Hohn]

Honest question here.

How important is it to remove the air vs, providing a constant supply of fuel. I like the idea of the RASP but it doesn't remove air (I don't think anyway).

So if a box would correct the timing and the RASP would supply the fuel, how would that work as a solution?



Tom

I think of it this way: where air is, fuel is NOT.



Is this important in a fuel-lubed pump? Logic suggest so.



JLH