Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) FINALLY!!!! Some one puts an end to Carter!!

[BK]

Anyways, these forums sometimes require an extra layer of skin, and/or aluminum underwear. . They've been this way for years, just about all of us have been "pounded" a little (or put on the rotisserie). The tough questions do get asked, but we sure know more than we did when we elected to join in. .

And to add to this ANY ONE here would help out another TDR member in their time of need. I KNOW I would.



I love reading these lift pump threads. I have had 4 vp44's and LP's replaced in the 6 years I have owned this truck. I am still trying to decide if I want to spend the money on a after market pump or keep running what I have. These treads help. Until now I never thought I was the reason these pumps were going bad. I always run my fuel down till the light comes on. It takes me 2 weeks to run out a tank of fuel. Every other Friday I go get fuel. I relocated the LP and added a FP gauge this summer. So far I have 11psi at idle and when I put my foot in the fan with my trailer I get no lower than 6psi. And that is only for a split second till it shifts. Is this bad? I was told that if it is over 5psi it is good.



Anyway, my hats off to ALL of you guys that try, buy or hear of something that works and post your finds for all of us TDR diesel heads to read. That is why I will give my $35. 00 when my subscription is up. -Jason

I agree, it's all for the best, with a little thick skin. Sometime we have a bunch of enthusiasm for a "fix" we find and get put through the ringer a bit when we post about it.



I thank MAV1 for taking the time to post about it. I've been lurking and reading it since he 1st posted about it.



As mentioned above, I too like reading about LP fixes. And if it wasnt for this forum I wouldn't have know about the relocation kit.



It seems every ~25k I go through a stock LP. I only have 58K on my 99.

I rarely run under 1/2 tank , just to be nice to the LP.

The 1st one was done under warranty. What a battle that was with a 5 stinking star dealer. They had zero clue as to how to correctly test the pump.

After about 2hrs of arguing, they finally called the Cummins hotline.



Just did the 2nd one with a relocation kit.

I managed to score 4 of the campaign pumps. So I'll go through them and see how it goes. My truck may rot out from around my CTD before I finish going through the 3 other campaing pumps. . I hope. Well not that I'm hoping for my truck to rot out, but you know what I mean.



I stayed near stock for the same reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. I have no bombing, and want easy access to replacement parts. Easy replacement was factor #2 in doing the relocation kit.



Rattle on my oil burning friends... .



-Bob

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I agree, it's all for the best, with a little thick skin. Sometime we have a bunch of enthusiasm for a "fix" we find and get put through the ringer a bit when we post about it.

NOT to fan the flames - but perhaps a bit of reality check is in order...



IF a guy hits a board with a somewhat aggressive post and title - THEN finishes it off with:

Flame on

He's sort of ASKING for responses that will be in the same aggressive character as he started with. Sure, MOST of us are here to help - and also to pick up a little help of our own as info becomes available - but as with most things in life, you get OUT of these boards pretty much what you put INTO them - post aggressively, inviting equally aggressive responses, and THAT is likely what you will GET!



If ya can't stand the heat, don't light the fire... :-laf

 

[SHobbs]

Not sure why my truck is so different. In 7 years and almost 210,000 miles I have only had 1 VP44 and 2 L. P's. Actually I am on the third L. P and the second is still good and sitting in the tool box as a spare the only reason I changed them out was due to a gelling problem. The first L. P failed at around 90k. The only thing I have done is to relocate the L. P to the frame with AN fittings and 3/8 line to the filter and VP. I have yet to do the draw straw which is in the plans. So far each L. P has delivered 13 psi at idle and never under 7 psi at WOT. The OEM's even handled cottonseed oil running through them which is a little heavier than #2 I only averaged 10 psi at idle on that stuff.

 

[BK]

I've heard of another gent, ~ 120K still stock OEM LP from factory and VP44.





All of mine started about about 15psi idle.

The first one was 5psi idle and ZERO at WOT.



The 2nd one went down to 10psi idle, but stayed above 6 WOT until a the spring time, started getting down to 3psi at WOT, so just avoided WOT till I changed it.



Now this campaign pump with the relocation kit, is 16 Idle and 14 WOT.

I have about a month on it.

Again, no bombing here.

 

[FLynes]

I'm at 112,000 miles on both original LP and VP. My truck has no mods, other than a Mag-Hytec diff cover (big whoop, I know). I've always been a bit shy of mod'ing my truck, after I saw the effects of an Edge Juiced CTD at Randolph Dodge, in Texas... . connecting rod was bent in on itself. I don't need the extra power... . it pulls my Airstream, horse trailer and Bass tracker with no problems. I wouldn't mind getting a bit better MPG, and I just read in Issue 57 that RV injectors can get you an extra 1. 5 MPG, so I might do that in the future.



The only reason I wouldn't go with Airtex is because I bought a carburetor some years ago from them and it leaked like crazy. I returned it and got a replacement and it too leaked. I got so fed up that I just hunted down an original carb, got it rebuilt and bench tested and never had a problem again.



I too am a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" guy. Something tells me that, if I mess with the LP (either relocate it near the tank or replace with aftermarket LP), Murphy's going to show up and I'm going to have problems.



The one thing I WILL do is add gauges... I had them on my '05. My wife complained that she couldn't see around the gauges, but then realized that the A-Pillar is the culprit, not the gauges, for her... . she feels it's a blind spot, but I don't see it (no pun intended).



If MAV1 plans on installing an Airtex LP, I'd be curious to see the numbers. It might motivate me to rethink my opposition to Airtex.

 

[rweis]

Just for curiosity I opened a thread to ask for negatives to the Walbro 392 (255 lpm) pump. Pump capacities can be found on most of the Walbro sellers sites.



2 so far:

1. Be sure to put a filter prior to the pump to keep the pump screen clean.

2. Be sure to use a fuel bypass system because it supplies more fuel than the VP44 can handle.



I'll post any other negatives as they are posted.



Bob Weis

 

[FLynes]

Bob, instead of a fuel bypass couldn't you just put in a fuel pressure regulator?



Also, and here's the can of worms I'm sure to open, is it true that VP44's are more concerned with how much volume they're getting, and not pressure? A couple of Dodge mechs from different dealerships told me that a while back... .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bob, instead of a fuel bypass couldn't you just put in a fuel pressure regulator?

The regulator needs a way and place to route the excess fuel - a straight inline regulator that maintains full pump PSI on ONE side, and only the lower set PSI on the other, requires (in the case of the Walbro) that there's very high PSI on the pump side of the regulator.



And since the logical spot for regulated PSI is as near the VP-44 as possible, that leaves the OEM fuel filter and other PSI sensitive components at risk of failure - there have been instances of fractured OEM fuel filter cases from too much system PSI...



Added to that, is the fact that a bypass/return setup places far less PSI stress on the supply pump, reduces current draw and enhances lifespan of the pump, since it's operating down at less than 20 PSI rather than up close to 100...

 

[PRout]

Does having the regulated bypass close to the VP44 also add the benefit of helping to purge air out of the lines after maintenance, by having a switch to manually run the lift pump for say 3-5 minutes before starting the engine?

 

[rweis]

When I started modifying my fuel system I used a Mallory fuel pressure regulator. One of the problems was that the output was quite a bit smaller than the input and therefore the volume deliverable at the set pressure was quite a bit less. Probably adequate, but I did not like not having full volume available. The bypass valve was BEFORE the ff and VP44 with no other route of excess volume back to the tank.



Then I went to the RASP system. I trust Bill K's solutions because he does not allow any partial answers. He had KO Engineering use a mechanical bypass valve and I went that way because he went that way. It has worked very well.



I have modified the single bypass valve in the RASP kit to a pair of parallel bypass valves set exactely the same. I did this to minimize the spring length of travel in a single bypass valve. I could not get the linear rate I wanted in a single spring. I also went with a different manufacturer of bypass valves that I could buy extra sets of springs of different wire diameters (rates of travel) and shims so I could set the pair of bypass valves exactely within 1 -2 psi. The RASP bypass valve did not come with access to different spring diameters and access to shim packages.



The bypass valves work very well and you can set them exactely the way you want, and of course totaly mechanical.



I think because of the parallel bypass valves and each of the springs have to travel a lesser length that they can reproduce exact pressures indefinitely. Also if something happens and one of the valves sticks closed the other one would still function. Sort of a mechanical backup.



My . 02



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Does having the regulated bypass close to the VP44 also add the benefit of helping to purge air out of the lines after maintenance, by having a switch to manually run the lift pump for say 3-5 minutes before starting the engine?

ABSOLUTELY!



When I change either the OEM or Frantz fuel filters, all I need do is provide external power to the Walbro, let it run as I monitor fuel PSI as also picked at the VP-44 inlet. After the gauge registers proper steady PSI, and all air has been purged from the system back thru the regulator return to the tank, the Cummins fires out without a glitch, hesitation or fart...

 

[rweis]

I have a some what simple way of purging air from fuel lines after I work on the fuel system. That said let me describe my fuel system.



All An-6 lines with full flow fittings. Still have a carter lp backup. RASP primary lp. Tank, DrawStraw, RACOR 690 10um (fuel filter / water seperator), RASP, Canton 6" 8um, up to a T at the VP44 with the single leg of the T going to the parallel mechanical bypass valves, then to the tank vent line into the tank.



The VP44 return line goes to the engine T, the injector return line goes to the engine T, which then comes off the single leg of the T into AN-6 and through 4 frame fuel coolers, and into the tank vent line by itself so as to not compete with the RASP return flow.



When I work on my fuel system I do the following:



Unscrew the AN-6 right on the VP44 inlet and CAP the VP44 male an-6 QUICKLY! Inside the VP44 is a small cavity that you want to keep full.



Then I have a 15' piece of plain rubber fuel line that I have a an-6 male and screw it into the VP44 fuel feed line that is now open that you tool off the VP44. Run the rubber fuel line back to the tank filler line. BUT hang the rubber line up higher than the tank fill line so when you reconnect the fuel feed to the VP44 you have fuel in the feed line and NOT AIR.



Do what ever fuel line maintenance you need to do, empty what ever lines you need to empty, what ever you need to do.



Then, when you have the fuel lines all closed up and are ready to purge the fuel system bump the starter and let the lp do its thing while you look at the flow out of the rubber line at the fuel tank filler. Keep bumping the started until you have full air free flow. If you want to pressurize the fuel lines put your thumb over the rubber hose and simulate pressure and watch for bubbles and good flow.



You have good flow. You hung the rubber line back to the tank high (on the under side of the open hood is fine) so there is some fuel in the line between the high point of the rubber line and the vp44 connection.



Now uncap the VP44 inlet male and keep the fuel from running out with your finger (the VP44 fuel cavity is full), unscrew the rubber line quickly and screw it onto the vp44 input fuel feed line (trying to keep as much fuel in the line and in the vp44 as possible while you are screwing the fuel feed back onto the vp44.



Now that you have the fuel system back together correctly, bump the starter, you see the psi build to about 8 psi, then crank and immediately you see the RASP pumping.



I have not had a single no start in 2 years, and believe me I have opened the fuel lines up more than a few times.



Bob Weis



My carter backup lp pump will not overcome the 14 psi setting of my mechanical bypass back to the tank and assure me the air is being purged therefore in that respect Gary's way is better (better lp in the Walbro, higher pressures). I am going to change my carter to a Walbro so I can do it Gary's way which is cleaner. I wonder if his VP44 fuel cavity empties when the system is opened though, might, but his way refills it before start.

 

[MAV1]

At WOT on lvl 5 running balls to the wall my fuel pressure is at 11psi.

WTF - Jeepin.com Forums

 

[SFrey]

look here, I frame mounted a new airtex with a fitting i made.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...-discussions/191876-new-lift-pump-design.html



scot

 

[rweis]

I have been trying to draw conclusion as to which lp systems work and which do not. It seems that the lp replacements that provide way to much fuel volume at the right pressures seem to be the survivors.



The FASS, AirDog, RASP, Walbro, BOSS the really overkill pumps with bypasses back to the tank.



The lp's that are closely matched to the VP44 do not seem to hold up over time, or are not embraced by a large population of users.



The carter, holley, etc.



The larger pumps come with a larger price tag, but only in some cases.



The Walbro 392 (just the pump) runs $109 on EBay which is cheaper than the OEM carter. The larger price tag is due in part by adding bypass valves and larger supply lines to get the larger volume to the VP44.



The AirTex runs about ~$150 which is still cheaper than the OEM carter.



Is it the way we are bypassing return fuel that is making the difference? Is it the much larger fuel volume that is making the difference? Is it a different style of pump (gerotor vs vane) that is making the difference.



Why are the carter's still failing and the replacements running well?



Is it the replacements are capable of so much more fuel that the pump is only working a a fraction of its capacity and not running at its maximum capacity?



I looked at the Walbro site today. They make fuel pumps for a wide range of different vehicles, in tank, in line, but a whole host of different applications. They are NOT NEW to fuel pumps.



I looked at the AirTex site today also. They make fuel pumps for a wide range of different vehicles, in tank, in line, but a whole host of different applications. They are NOT NEW to fuel pumps.



What is all this telling us? Maybe we are just getting smarter finding the possibilities?



Bob Weis

 

[SFrey]

the engineer from airtex stated that the carters only fail on the trucks with the cummins in, on the industrial, agriculture application they have no problems. he said this is due to the fuel tank being closer to the motor and up higher (gravity feed)



scot

 

[FLynes]

So, Bob, are you predicting a decline in FASS/Airdog/Walbro sales, if the Airtex lives up to what it claims? Better yet, it would be nice to see a decline in prices... that's really what's keeping me from buying the big name brands.



Scot, this is interesting... . has there been a study done with the guys who have auxilliary in bed tanks? Seems to me that they're gravity fed tanks. Just a thought.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

look here, I frame mounted a new airtex with a fitting i made.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...-discussions/191876-new-lift-pump-design.html



scot

That pump looks suspiciously like an adaptation of a Walbro GSS-340 Ford Mustang unit - they sell on Ebay for under $100.



eBay Motors: WALBRO 255LPH INTANK FUEL PUMP GSS-340 GSS340 MUSTANG (item 290165902700 end time Nov-28-07 10:27:43 PST)



Not sure exactly what difference in specs between one of those and the popular Walbro GSL-392...

 

[ERuhl]

With regard to the Walbro feedback:

I'm very happy with my 392 pump (using the Mallory 3-port regulator) and I like that I can get a replacement at any Napa (1989 Ford F150, 302 EFI engine, external pump). It'll be closer to the 393's flow capacity, but externally identical and good enough to get me home until I can source a 392. The Jeep that I tow around uses the same 392 pump, so one spare covers both vehicles

Fwiw I bolted the Mallory in the stock lift pump location using the stock lift pump bracket.

 

[MAV1]

Outstanding!!!! New Airtex pump Rocks

Thanks to SFrey and a trip to my local machinist, I had a couple adapters made, and installed a new Airtex E7153 lift pump. It has been in my truck since Friday (Nov. 16th) and here are some preliminary numbers.

Idle, 19-20 psi
80MPH steady state cruise empty, 16-17 psi
hard pull making 32 #'s of boost, 13-14 psi
wot empty, 11-12 psi

I am very pleased. The wait was well worth it and the cost is right on with my needs for my truck.

Out of curiosity and for those wanting flow numbers, I have an appointment with my local Dodge dealer to have the new pump flow tested per the latest TSB prior to the intank retrofit, i. e. , x number of ounces in x number of seconds and will post when I have that data.

In the information column, my fuel lines are all 1/2" i. d. , fuel tank to filter housing, filter housing to injection pump. My fuel pressure sensor is mounted at the injection pump inlet and my gauge is digital, one of the constant real time parameters monitored by the Edge Juice with A2 controller/monitor, with resolution down to . 10 second monitoring.

For those wondering about my power output, here's some fyi.
The Juice is installed sans the pump wire tap, works like an EZ. Using the broad general HP rule of thumb estimate; 1 pound of boost equals approximately 11 HP, 32#'s boost times 11 equals approximately 352 BHP.

Now the engine does not stumble, surge or lay down, power is seamless, strong and hauls a^*. BOOOOO YAAH

Maverick