Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Finally stumped..... engine won't start (on its own), and stalls when put in gear.

[Rob Thomas]

Ok boys,



I have a truck here, a '98. 5 24 valve, auto, 4x4, bone stock with 110,000 miles on it.



The only way it starts is if I soak a rag in gasoline and place it under the air filter, then if fires right up, and runs good. When I put it in gear (any gear, reverse, drive, ect) it stalls, but not all the time, however most of the time, and won't start on it's own.



Off idle, if I WOT in nutral, the engine hesitates/ stumbles a bit, blows a bluish white smoke, and clears right up to red-line. If I hold the throttle at 1000 rpm's, and mash it, it's smooth, and no smoke at all, clean and stumble free up to red-line. If I hold at 1000 rpm's and place into gear it continues running, and drives normally, until I stop, then it dies.



I have 23 psi post filter, 3/4 tank of fuel and fuel to the injetor tubes when I cracked 3 lines and cranked the engine. I also ran a clear hose from the filter to the VP to see if there was any air bubbles, nada, just solid fuel.



I also just replaced both the lift-pump, and the pusher pump, totally unrelated, as it wouldn't start prior to changing them. The truck also had a minimum of 10 psi prior to changing the pumps, (long story).



As far as I know this is the original VP. All the gauges act normally, including the tach, it is solid, no bouncing, and no check engine light is on.



Anyone care to take a stab at this?





Thanks, Rob

 

[csevers]

Is 23 psi to much for the VP-44 post filter? Does no check engine light mean no codes? I don't have any more help other than that. Good luck let us know what it was.



Craig

 

[LSMITH]

Rob, have you adjusted the valves? Low compression is a whole lot like what you are describing. The other thing it sounds like is the VP is going. Were it my money I would take it to Cummins for the $100 diagnostic hook-up and they can tell you exactly what it is after I spent a half hour with the valve cover off.



I would be willing to bet it is low compression, or low injection pressure that is causing the problem.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

i run about 28psi at idle and i have had no problems. although i do have a modified vp44.



i wonder if it could be bad fuel, or could have water in the system.



jim

 

[Rob Thomas]

Craig, I'm sure they're are codes, I just don't have any way of checking them on the weekend.



Howard, I haven't adjusted the valves, I'm not sure if the owner had them adjusted either. I'll check/adjust them first, then tomorrow I'll spend the $100.



Jim, It's unlikely water is in the fuel, it (the fuel) looks normal, no signs of water (via clear hose), or from draining the filter. Bad fuel is a possiblity though, I may hook up a fresh container of fuel to the pusher pump in the morning.



Thanks guys, Rob

 

[jmeehan]

Maybe a bad throttle position sensor. Of course you need to read the codes to know for sure, unless you happened to have a spare handy, like off another truck.

 

[Big White Beast]

As far as hard starts.........

That could be a direct result of over pressure to the VP. That's why the stock LP drops voltage during start up. I have my pusher follow the stock LP and it has little pressure that way when cranking over.



Just something to look at.



Garrett

 

[MCummings]

Rob,



I'm going to put $20 on the VP44 being shot.



Deal?



See you in Muncie



Merrick Cummings Jr

 

[Rob Thomas]

Originally posted by MCummings

Rob,



I'm going to put $20 on the VP44 being shot.



Deal?



See you in Muncie



Merrick Cummings Jr

#@$%! #@$%! Let's hope not.





Ok, no go on the valve adjustment.



I got the codes today. .



P0121

Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Signal Volts Do Not Agree w/Idle Validation Signal



P0216

Fuel Injection Pump Timing Failure



P1689

No Communication Between ECM & Injection Pump Module



Now at least I have a direction to go.





Later, Rob

 

[Evan A. Beck]

You got the pump plugged in? (P1689)



P0216 is VERY common with a fried VP44...



Good luck...

 

[Rob Thomas]

Originally posted by Evan A. Beck

You got the pump plugged in? (P1689)



P0216 is VERY common with a fried VP44...



Good luck...

Yea, the pump is plugged in, and bite your tongue on the "fried" statement.





Rob

 

[MCummings]

Are we go on the $20 ?



Check to make sure all connections are plugged into tight in the ECM on the rivers side block.



A little mis-connection and the truck will go haywire.



My truck fried a VP44 at 80K miles about 3 weeks after a new lift pump.



I have a customers truck with the same codes, but diffetrent symptoms, this guy is blowiong white smoke on start-up, and has extremely low power with lots of missing, then it clears up and runs. Looks like there's another dead VP44 in Laredo... .



Merrick Cummings Jr

 

[Rob Thomas]

Originally posted by MCummings



Check to make sure all connections are plugged into tight in the ECM on the rivers side block.



A little mis-connection and the truck will go haywire.



My truck fried a VP44 at 80K miles about 3 weeks after a new lift pump.



I have a customers truck with the same codes, but diffetrent symptoms, this guy is blowiong white smoke on start-up, and has extremely low power with lots of missing, then it clears up and runs. Looks like there's another dead VP44 in Laredo... .



Merrick Cummings Jr

Where is the "rivers" side of the block?



BTW, the truck was acting this way BEFORE I touched the lift-pusher pumps, not much before, but it was before.



I'm already tired of hearing, "Sounds like a bad VP", can't you guys say something like, "Well, it sounds like a worn out headlight", or " Did you try installing new air in the tires?", something nice and simple would be much better.





Rob

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Ok, we can stop comdemning the VP44...



Why not just replace the engine with a NEW crate motor from Cummins? How's that sound? You won't even have to crack open an injector line!



You may want to do a search on "VP44 pump tester. " You could probably make one of your own...

 

[Rob Thomas]

Originally posted by Evan A. Beck

You may want to do a search on "VP44 pump tester. " You could probably make one of your own...

Yep, making one is tomorrows project.

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Good deal. Hope it finds the problem for you. If it is a bad VP, no biggie. Parts fail, you replace them. Simple as that.

 

[MCummings]

Have you checked the blinker fluid??



Switch to Synthetic. It should help. I don't suggest extended drains for blinker fluid. Let it drain for 5 minutes,, I don't get the 30,000 miles extended drain. I feel that if you let your oil drain for 30,000 miles you might decrease engine life... .



rivers side?? I meant Drivers side

 

[jmeehan]

Did you look into the APPS code? I mis-remembered the terminology for the part. If the APPS is telling the ECM one thing and the VP44 is saying something else I'd start with the APPS, it costs less.

 

[Rob Thomas]

85CJ,



Yep, I have access to a spare, I'll be trying that tomorrow as well.



thanks, Rob

 

[kaffine krazed]

Swap the relay for the injection pump. I can't remeber what it is labled as but it has to do with fuel. Try lighting the fuel with a lighter. You might also want to send the injectors out to be tested. I would also try to limit the fuel pressure to under 15psi and under 10 while cranking.