for all of those who said iraq was a failed plan

[Champane Flight]

As soon

Lets just get one thing straight, Billy bob Clinton was not my hero, far from it. But at least he didn't profess to be a good Christian, then turn on the war machine for his own purpose. He just got a little on his white owl, the way all you act, there may be a little jealousy going on.



Whenever someone says they don't like the present administration they are automatically a socialist, or a communist. If this is what America is becoming, it is worse than the Mc carthy days. We are becoming a bunch of paranoid schizophrenics. Thank you GWB and the Republican machine.



All this cowboy up crap is sickening me, you guys sound like a bad B movie gone haywire. Me th is rampant in Texas, is it not? I have drawn one unemployment check in my life! I have worked for everything I have. Please don't preach to me about how anybody can get ahead in America. I came out of the service and tried to go to school under the GI bill, due to my governments bumbling, I got put on hold. Then when they finally got their stuff together, it was too late for me, I had to go back to work to pay my bills. I could have gone back, but decided it was not for me and I was fed up with the government paper chase to get it.



No, I am not jealous of the present military or there war in Iraq. I am sure they are better trained, equipped, and backed, for sure backed. I am a little concerned we don't ever learn to keep our noses out of other country's. Sometimes we do not realize that some peoples don't know or care about democracy. I hope we learn this lesson someday.



* * *



Champagne Flight, the closing to your post was totally unacceptable within this forum. It has been deleted.



Robin

TDR Admin

04/22/03

 

[Sled Puller]

If that last sentence does not inspire a report to a moderator, I don't know what will.





BUSH, '04



Colin Powell, 08 perhaps?

 

[merryman]

CF

1. You missed my point alltogether on Hitler;

Churchill,and our president wanted to stop Hitler LONG before he conquered much of Europe. They wanted to stop him when he was a minor threat because they had the smarts to see what was comming, but the peace freaks were powerfull enough that they were unable to even begin military preperation untill it was darn near to late.

Great paralell ; they and Bush faced the same tired old arguments that you put forth here. Too bad they were not able to stop Hitler before it took many thousands of our troups as well as destroying much of europe; thank god Bush was not stopped or we very well could have faced a similiar horror had saddam developed his weapons sufficently that he felt he was ready to expand.

How you guys fail to recognize the danger and the truly great service to the country and the world that Bush has done mistifies me.

2. Where in the world do you guys get the notion that the war is in ANY way for Bush or Cheney's personal benefit??Mind boggling!!



Oh, yeah, I suppose we should have waited till a bunch of oil fields were burning, then put the contracts to extingish them out to bid; heck, we could have awarded the contact to some poor out of work guy who could have had a crew hired, trained and ready to tackle those fires by, oh say, 2006 at least----that is if the gov't also paid him up front so he could do the hiring and training.



3. I too resent your view of our military;

I was one of those poor kids who went in right out of high school (July 15 1953--my birthday!) . Our family literally did not have a pot or a window to throw it out of(house burned and we lived in a tent from 2nd through 7th grade. Dad came down with some wierd desease which was never diagnosed, couldn't work, and expected to die for years. He was 6 feet tall and weighed under 100 pounds. No money for Doctors and such. My brothers and I sold produce door to door to help support the family form the time we were in third grade. Mom with no job skills and kids at home made things she sold door to door. There was little public support around and we had too much pride to accept it anyway) Hell, it wasn't till I grew up that I learned we had had a hard time of it :>)

The military was a great oportunity (I thought basic training was a hoot---all the food I could eat, and indoor plumbing!!!),and the GI bill helped me end up a Lawyer then a trial Judge. Those guys over there need none of your sympathy.

Sorry about the soap box.



Vaughn

Vaughn

 

[Champane Flight]

What

The parallel of Hitler and Saddam is lacking. On everything except the type of tyrant he was. We did not have the UN watching Hitlers every move and doing arms inspections at the time of his military buildup. We did not have air power covering 3/4 of his country during his buildup. And most of all we had real evidence of his intentions before entering the war. With Saddam, it was could, would, and mights. You being a lawyer should know that any court would not allow you to execute someone on the premise that they MIGHT commit a crime in the future. You see it is not the war, but how he set this war up, and the so called reasons for it.



In the same breath, I am glad we did go in, and do believe that WMD exist, but do not like the precedence it sets for America. I still can dislike the present administration just as much as the last. Sorry boys, you are pushing a rope trying to make this a "just war" with me. Too many things smell. We will see what it is someday, no one call tell the future. This war is not over, as long as we have our boys there and they are taking fire.



I am bitter toward my government, I have stated the reasons for it. But, I look at our nation without the rose colored glasses. I see some of the good things this nation has done, but I still see some of the atrocities committed in the past. It is with great regret that the things seen with my eyes have made me distrust our government so. I cannot and will not return to the bright eyed kid in uniform standing at attention saluting the flag with a tear of pride in his eye of long ago. Been dinged too many times. I will not turn my back on the troops and support them in any way possible (except for backing their commander in chief) , over there and most important, when/after they come. They are the most important factor in this whole mess. That is not sympathy, but respect.

 

[CWeidenkeller]

Hey CF,



Just out of curiosity, who was the last President you did support? I'm just wondering if you're just plain anti-government. Although I don't necessarily agree with your positions and arguments on some points, other do have merit as points of debate.



It's obvious you don't support GW, and didn't care for Billy Jeff. I'm drawing an inference here that you are a Viet Nam vet, so I would imagine you had no love for Nixon either.



Who, in your opinion, was the last good President?



IMHO, this would clear up some questions regarding your position. The "Lefty" iron is getting hot, but I for one am not quite ready to burn it into your forehead (figuratively speaking).



While I myself fall decidedly on the right, and I am a pretty staunch supporter of GWB, I try not to look at this administration through "rose colored glasses". I have questions about the relationship with the House of Saud, I am uncomfortable with the gov't relationship with "Big Business" (both parties). While I don't agree with some of the domestic policies of the current administration, I uderstand the logic behind them, and therefore support the ends, not necessarily the means.



I agree with your statement regarding the lack of morality among this nation's political elite. But let's, for a moment, hark back to a time when politicians practiced, to a higher degree than today, the morality they preached. Remember that? Back when politicians openly professed their faith? When LBJ's administration added "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance?



At least GWB isn't afraid of offending the politically correct by professing his faith. It appears to me, with few exceptions, that he has at least made an honest effort to do the things he said he would do. He has also garnered the respect of the soldiers he commands. As evidenced by JConley's posts, our fighting forces believe in their cause.



This, in my book, makes him a man of character, and worthy of my respect.



I know I'm pi$$ing up a rope in justifying GWB to you, but then again, alot of your arguments do the same to me.



If I knew who, in your opinion, was the last good president, perhaps I could understand your position a little better.

 

[Rman]

man if CF starts going back to the likes of buchanan, lincoln, and johnson i'm outta here. Seems to me no one is capable enough to meet CF's standards, hell maybe he can fit the mold. CF for pres!

 

[loncray]

Pledge of Allegiance

Wasn't the Johnson Administration put the "Under God" in the Pledge - t'was Congress during the Eisenhower Administration.

 

[Champane Flight]

Many

There were many presidents I have admired from the past.



In my lifetime I would have to say Nixon. He did what he said he would do, was a great foreign policy maker, and had the cohones to match. He wasn't a religious man, yet held a unique power about him. He just got caught doing something that most politicians have done since the beginning.



Kennedy was a great man, but lacked the time in office to make a difference.



Carter was a wishy washy mess, who had not a clue, he did get to put a little peace in place between Egypt and Israel.



Reagan did nothing in my book except try trickle down, and get his horoscope done, typical movie star stuff.



Bush #1 was a good man, he did everything he said, but blew it on the home front with his no mo taxes thing. He also blew it on the Iraq thing, should have had the cohones to buck the UN and do the job then. He had reason for war then!



Billy Bob did an excellent job on economy, but had not a clue how to run a military or keep his little head in control. He also had some big headhunters on him from the start.



I may be wrong about this president, it may come to pass that this was the greatest one in my lifetime (although I really doubt it). If I was to have a heart to heart with the man and not the president, you never know, I may change my mind. I think he takes a lot of his cues from outside sources, that is what really bugs me. I do not like the idea of a president who is following the doctrine of what I consider a evil. Too much hush, hush. His domestic policies are a failure so far and the country's infrastructure is in a shambles. http://www.newamericancentury.org/global-091302.htm



I think a American President should follow the polls, not because of opinion or future votes, but because they reflect what the American people want. This is who the President serves, the people! If he has our best interests in mind he should lay his cards on the table in front of ALL the American people and should not be following a hidden agenda. I really could give a rats behind if the President is religious or not, it is his actions that matter to me. He is a man, put his pants on the same as me, and should not hold himself above any other man.



I am sure the troops are backing this action, I backed Nam when I went. I thought we were there to keep the spread of Communism in check and save the democracy of S. Vietnam. Until I saw what the government I was supporting (RVN) was doing, I thought it was a just war.

 

[sdalton]

I think that CF could clear up a lot of confusion by jst answering some of the questions asked of him. Including. What his stance on Partial Birth Abortion is. How he feals about legalizing drugs. Should the words "Under God" be in the Pledge Of Allegence"? Should Gays be allowed spousal insurance benefits for thier partners?? Should a President be required to disclose all information revealed to him, to the public, before he takes military action, so that the resident communist and socialist "America Haters" can torpedo any military actions that need to be taken? Do you think that Yoko Ono should run for office? CF, are you now, or have you ever been a member of a communist or socialist party or organization? Do you think that Fidel Castro was good for Cuba? Also, one last question, which has been bugging me for a while. Are you, CF, an antagonist, or a troll that likes to annoy people for the fun of it. Surely you cannot believe everything you have professed to us, if you do then you must have a lot of anger in yourself for just about everything around you, exept you dog, and the birds that sing all around you .



Do you, CF, feel that France, Germany, and Russia should play any part in rebuilding Iraq??

 

[Champane Flight]

In order

In order:

No, I believe that all abortion is wrong, but we need viable adoption plan, leg exercise (keeping them crossed)

taught at every turn of a young girls life, and teach young men how to take a lot of cold showers. Either this or birth control until marriage mandatory.



I believe the war is not working, other than legalizing them and collecting taxes, I do not have another answer. Do you?



Do not care.



Yes.



I believe a President should give solid proof of threat to America before military action is taken. The boogieman cannot hurt the truth.



No!



If belonging to a labor union can be construed as such, yes.



No! Although communism does tend to feed the hungry.



Sometimes, but usually it is you guys doing it to me. I do enjoy a good scrap though. It is my nature.







Yes, they can start by donating CASH!

 

[sdalton]

Congradulations, you are a closet Republican.



Just Kidding. More like closet confused.

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: In order

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I think a American President should follow the polls



Although communism does tend to feed the hungry.



D

A president should LEAD us, not sway to our whims, from a poll that was put on by some idiot news reporter, who has construed the poll to refelct the answer the reporter wants. That can go both ways, right and left.







Is there anyone reading this board that has lived under Communism?



If so, please englighten us on how the food situation is.

 

[Elite1]

Originally posted by merryman

CF

1. You missed my point alltogether on Hitler;

Churchill,and our president wanted to stop Hitler LONG before he conquered much of Europe. They wanted to stop him when he was a minor threat because they had the smarts to see what was comming, but the peace freaks were powerfull enough that they were unable to even begin military preperation untill it was darn near to late.

Great paralell ; they and Bush faced the same tired old arguments that you put forth here. Too bad they were not able to stop Hitler before it took many thousands of our troups as well as destroying much of europe; thank god Bush was not stopped or we very well could have faced a similiar horror had saddam developed his weapons sufficently that he felt he was ready to expand.

How you guys fail to recognize the danger and the truly great service to the country and the world that Bush has done mistifies me.

2. Where in the world do you guys get the notion that the war is in ANY way for Bush or Cheney's personal benefit??Mind boggling!!



Oh, yeah, I suppose we should have waited till a bunch of oil fields were burning, then put the contracts to extingish them out to bid; heck, we could have awarded the contact to some poor out of work guy who could have had a crew hired, trained and ready to tackle those fires by, oh say, 2006 at least----that is if the gov't also paid him up front so he could do the hiring and training.



3. I too resent your view of our military;

I was one of those poor kids who went in right out of high school (July 15 1953--my birthday!) . Our family literally did not have a pot or a window to throw it out of(house burned and we lived in a tent from 2nd through 7th grade. Dad came down with some wierd desease which was never diagnosed, couldn't work, and expected to die for years. He was 6 feet tall and weighed under 100 pounds. No money for Doctors and such. My brothers and I sold produce door to door to help support the family form the time we were in third grade. Mom with no job skills and kids at home made things she sold door to door. There was little public support around and we had too much pride to accept it anyway) Hell, it wasn't till I grew up that I learned we had had a hard time of it :>)

The military was a great oportunity (I thought basic training was a hoot---all the food I could eat, and indoor plumbing!!!),and the GI bill helped me end up a Lawyer then a trial Judge. Those guys over there need none of your sympathy.

Sorry about the soap box.



Vaughn

Vaughn

Vaughn, WOW! You are a true American success story! I support our Troops and President. I voted for Bush/ Cheney, I think our President has made some tough decisions. I have always prided myself in being a good judge of character, I trust Bush I think he is a good man. I am so glad Gore didn't get elected, I thought he was a preppy BSer . I actually liked his running mate, thought he was a pretty stand up guy, even though I didn't agree with many of his issues. I did notice Lieberman said on O'reilly's show that Bush has handled this war effort perfectly and he supports him and wouldn't have done anything differently. Our former president slick Willie on the other hand... the first time I ever saw the guy speak, I thought this guy reminds me of a used car salesman. He is and was full of BS and himself!

CF, you said Slick Willie did a great job with the economy... Let's not forget that Reagan appointed Greenspan and Willie was a lame duck president, The Republicans controlled the house and senate for the majority of his term, so WJC could only sign into law conservative bills and laws!... . Many Dem's were flabergasted at how conservative Clinton got ..... he didn't have a choice! He was a lame duck! Remember when he ran for Pres. all his promises of reforming medical care, social security, etc... . none of it happened!

 

[Champane Flight]

He leads?

A President does not lead me, I am a civilian, he serves me. He is put in the office to serve the people, not lead. Thank God for that. He is the leader of the military, although you probably won't see this one near a war zone.



If I remember right, slick willie had a heck of a time putting through a balanced budget, there was much screaming (something like breeding elephants, although most Republicans wish to forget this). He did it through threatening to veto anything but. As far as SS and medical, the insurance company's, and the Republicans put an end to that.



I have not lived under communism, but have seen the results in country's such as Nam. You go from being a hungry peasant, to be a fed peasant with a brainwashing/beating in progress. We as a great nation should know/learn that not all the world wants our type of democracy. Looking at Iraq right now with the Shiites wanting power, you get my drift. It may look like Afghanistan and a democratic Tali ban before to long.



As long as I don't come out, no one will ever know.

 

[illflem]

Back to the subject.

Guess it wasn't a failed plan if you consider very little in the way of WMD have been found and the most common words out majority of the Iraqi citizens mouth's is "Thank you USA for getting rid of Saddam, now leave ".

Now the Shiite majority is saying to hell with your American democracy and is supporting a Theocratic government modeled after Iran. In other words they want the same kind government that we fought by supplying Saddam with military advisors and WMD technology in his war with Iran. Shiite religious leaders who will soon be in control if we truely do what we say and let them choose their own government are now also calling for the US to keep their hands off Iraq's oil.



I get the feeling that none of this was part of the "plan".

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: He leads?

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I have not lived under communism, but have seen the results in country's such as Nam. You go from being a hungry peasant, to be a fed peasant with a brainwashing/beating in progress. We as a great nation should know/learn that not all the world wants our type of democracy. Looking at Iraq right now with the Shiites wanting power, you get my drift. D

I finally get your drift!!!!!



We should BEAT AND BRAINWASH the people on welfare we are feeding, and the homeless at soup kitchens!!!

Now it all makes sense!!!



Wait a sec... the Democrats have the brainwashing going pretty good... . maybe they could start the beatings without much effort? After all, their party is the closest thing to Communism we have, it is all clear now. LMAO!!





Bill,

Did you ever think that just maybe, the majority of the Iraqis are NOT saying that, but the media is desparetly looking for the butts of Iraqi society, to make news?

Loud and boisterous does not mean they all want that.

The media has long played the Arabs in the streets, blah, blah-gosh same thing over here-1000 people in a city of 2 million get all the press.

 

[Rman]

Guys, mainly CF, You've got to be kidding me on the food and communism thing? I'm a bit of a russian history nut and have extensive knowledge of the russian revolution and basically most of the russian 20th century.



The whole idea that communism feeds people better than a democracy has got to be the most rediculous notion i've heard yet! What about the "state" farms, the collective farming... how it completely wasted food and limited production. When farmers don't get anything in return for farming crops... . there is no food! ever heard of those LONG LONG lines to get a slice of bread? geez c'mon man, come out from behind your curtains here.



The entire communist ideal is utterly stupid, we can get into long arguements about morals, but capitalism won, and won for a reason. It works. Lenin and Marx had good ideas, but those ideas cannot work unless in a utopian society, a society without corruption and greed. Unfortunatly a society like that is unattainable, as long as things like wealth and power exist they cannot coincide.



The Russians proved that communism doesn't work, they proved that socialism doesn't work, i cannot understand how people haven't seen this or know what happened. I guess they just put blinders on live there lives.



Russian history is really fascinating, i love it, those people have been oppressed for hundreds perhaps thousands of years. To them though it was life, they knew know better. Some people think the Jews have it rough, Stalin killed 4 times as many of his own people than Hitler killed Jews, who has it bad again?



They were preached too about how much better it would be, how equal it would be. Corruption took hold of that system, and ran with it. Capitalism is far from perfect, infact it is just as corrupt. However there are far more checks in place to prevent devastation in capitalism. Capitalism isn't that old, a few hundred years, give it time it will fall and something will replace it.

 

[loncray]

I'm curious - now that Saddam's out - what will we do if the Shiites put forth an Ayatollah to run the country? What if extremist anti-West Muslim clerics start winning elections? Saddam was not at all a nice guy, but he did run a secular government, and he was fairly moderate towards the Christian minority there.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by loncray

I'm curious - now that Saddam's out - what will we do if the Shiites put forth an Ayatollah to run the country?



****Simple, we leave them alone, but keep an eye on them to watch for terrorist activity, if they start going Saddams way, we thump them. ***





Saddam was not at all a nice guy, but he did run a secular government, and he was fairly moderate towards the Christian minority there.

Excuse me?

 

[illflem]

loncray, that's the dilemma. If the majority there want this kind of government what are we supposed to do, tell them no? Same thing happened when the US backed government of Iran was ousted along with the US, the majority opted for the Ayatollah.

Seems the only ones going for the US "plan" are the Kurds in the north, it almost should be made into a separate country if it's going to work out for all involved.

My feeling is that Muslims don't do well with democracy, they almost need a dictator.



Gene, your attitude that "thumping" is the way to fix things cracks me up. Is that how you teach your kids too? All it does is breed more resentment and terrorists who don't need a country or even a strong leader to do their damage. With 65% of the Middle East's population under 25 and predominately male there should be no problem finding volunteers that fit the "profile".