Ford building it's own diesel to replace Navistar

[EArp]

Hey guys, gotta chime in with my piece. FORD DOES NOT OWN CUMMINS!!! This has long been a rumor for the simple reason that Ford used to own quite a few shares of Cummins which have since been reacquired by cummins. I actually read about this ON THE ACTUAL CUMMINS WEBSITE. However, as luck would have it, I can't find where it is on the site as it's been awhile since I looked it up. My uncle and I (who drives a ford) had a big debate about this, and after he saw the rumor dismissed on the actual cummins website he shut his mouth. Oh and by the way, no matter what engine the ford's have in them, you'll never catch me in one. I'll stick with the tried and true cummins every time.

 

[Coalsmoke]

If ford is seriously going to try and make their own diesel after fubaring International instead of commissioning them to build a proper and complete package then I'm afraid that this new ford engine is going to resemble very much GM's horrible 6. 5 diesel.

 

[Grizzly]

Hey guys, gotta chime in with my piece. FORD DOES NOT OWN CUMMINS!!! This has long been a rumor for the simple reason that Ford used to own quite a few shares of Cummins which have since been reacquired by cummins. I actually read about this ON THE ACTUAL CUMMINS WEBSITE. However, as luck would have it, I can't find where it is on the site as it's been awhile since I looked it up. My uncle and I (who drives a ford) had a big debate about this, and after he saw the rumor dismissed on the actual cummins website he shut his mouth. Oh and by the way, no matter what engine the ford's have in them, you'll never catch me in one. I'll stick with the tried and true cummins every time.

I know that, I just like to rattle some people's chain. However there are still many Furd salesman that tell that little story to their customers.

 

[JUeckert]

finally, a post that makes some real sense. ford has done very well with their MEDIUM duty 7. 3 engine.....



The 7. 3 Ford diesel is classified as a light duty engine.

the 7. 3 engine is a medium duty engine, plain and simple. open the hood on any international two ton and look at the emission tag on the engine, it says medium/heavy duty. my single axle dump has such a tag on the valve cover. early models ih trucks will say medium duty on their tags. this tag is for emission reasons only, and is the main reason the the 7. 3 was axed in the first place, it couldnt pass light duty emissions. the 7. 3 was rated in the same 'B' life study as the cummins. if opening the hood on a truck is not feasible, ask any international dealer. as for 6. 4 trucks being in the shop, i see no more 6. 4 trucks in the local ford dealer shops then i do 6. 7 dodges. there's a lot more 6. 4's on the road in my region also. fact is when i took my 05 dodge in for repair less then a month back, the service manager cautioned me to wait another year before purchaseing a new 6. 7, they were having to many issues. there is no doubt, working on the 6. 0 and 6. 4 is more complicated, even simple crap like the serpentine belt . as for as the early model trucks not being any easier to work on then the newer ones, you must be a young mechanic mopar man. i can pull the engine from a first gen without removeing the front clip[grill,condensor] that wont happen with a 2nd gen or newer.

 

[Grizzly]

the 7. 3 engine is a medium duty engine, plain and simple. open the hood on any international two ton and look at the emission tag on the engine, it says medium/heavy duty. my single axle dump has such a tag on the valve cover. early models ih trucks will say medium duty on their tags. this tag is for emission reasons only, and is the main reason the the 7. 3 was axed in the first place, it couldnt pass light duty emissions. the 7. 3 was rated in the same 'B' life study as the cummins. if opening the hood on a truck is not feasible, ask any international dealer. as for 6. 4 trucks being in the shop, i see no more 6. 4 trucks in the local ford dealer shops then i do 6. 7 dodges. there's a lot more 6. 4's on the road in my region also. fact is when i took my 05 dodge in for repair less then a month back, the service manager cautioned me to wait another year before purchaseing a new 6. 7, they were having to many issues. there is no doubt, working on the 6. 0 and 6. 4 is more complicated, even simple crap like the serpentine belt . as for as the early model trucks not being any easier to work on then the newer ones, you must be a young mechanic mopar man. i can pull the engine from a first gen without removeing the front clip[grill,condensor] that wont happen with a 2nd gen or newer.

I doubt that a 7. 3 International engine is exactly the same engine as a 7. 3 Powerjoke. I am not an engine expert so I can not prove my point. Ford dictates to Navistar Internatinal how they want their engine made or modified. Same is true for Duramax. GM dictates to Isuzu to make their engine with an aluminum block and whatever other modification they want. On the other hand Cummins decides how a Cummins engine is to be made, not Dodge.

 

[Coalsmoke]

There are some differences between ford's 7. 3 and the international DT444 engines (E series). The DT444 IMHO is neither a great engine nor a horrible engine, but it is definitely not on the same field as an ISB and is not really a medium duty engine, even though it may have been branded as such. Now the DT466 is a real medium duty engine.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

WELL, in any event, virtually EVERY listing I have seen published - and I've seen several over the years - of the diesel engines as OEM supplied in the GM, Ford, and DC, have listed the others as "light duty", and our Cummins as "medium duty" - and those sources were independent, not affiliated with any of the 3 truck makers. The earlier of those ratings covered the 7. 3 Ford, and later ones covered the 6. 0 - haven't seen any on Ford's stuff later than the 6. 0, or the 5. 9 in the Dodge.



And it's my assumption we're pretty much talking what comes standard in the 3/4 and 1-ton stuff - not special, or extra cost options such as the Cat or Cummins options Ford offers in heavier rated trucks...



On a positive note, with all the problems and failures of the Ford diesels as supplied in past trucks, it seems they have lots of past errors to make up for, as well as returning major lost accounts to their customer lists - those who got disgusted with all the earlier engine issues and switched to GM and DC - and I'd think they would want to be VERY sure to design and produce a clear winner - if their economics will still allow it.



For sure, there is no "magic" in diesel engine design, and Ford certainly has the engineering and manufacturing capabilities to get it done, if they put their mind and $$$ to it...

 

[Grizzly]

Coalsmoke and Gary, both of you have made some good points. I do agree with you Gary that Ford does have the engineering and manufacturing capabilities to design and build engines, but I am not impressed with any engines Ford has produced on their own, with the exception of the current V-10, which is a good engine, but doesn't have the torque and is a gas hog. The 360 and 390 gassers stunk, the 460 was powerful, but stunk. Ford hot rod builders typically use Chevy 350 engines. On the other hand GM and Dodge have had some great gas engines. The biggest problem with the 6. 0 and 6. 4 Powerjoke is not so much Navistar International as is Ford dictating how they want it built.

 

[SNiebaum]

and in the ongoing saga between Navistar and Ford, it appears Navistar has filed a lawsuit against Ford because of Ford's desire to build their own diesel engines. (page 17, July 2008 Diesel World)

 

[JUeckert]

Coalsmoke and Gary, both of you have made some good points. I do agree with you Gary that Ford does have the engineering and manufacturing capabilities to design and build engines, but I am not impressed with any engines Ford has produced on their own, with the exception of the current V-10, which is a good engine, but doesn't have the torque and is a gas hog. The 360 and 390 gassers stunk, the 460 was powerful, but stunk. Ford hot rod builders typically use Chevy 350 engines. On the other hand GM and Dodge have had some great gas engines. The biggest problem with the 6. 0 and 6. 4 Powerjoke is not so much Navistar International as is Ford dictating how they want it built.

i cant quite agree with this. keep in mind, i'am a gm person at heart. overall and depending on years, ford built many very good engine's, some cases better then gm. the 351 in most cases was a better performer then the 350gm, and in the earlier years, lasted longer. the 302 in nearly every case was better then a gm 305. the 300 6cyl ford in most years was a better engine then any 6cyl gm ever had[ except the 305 gmc 6cyl]. the 460 was a great lowend puller, but the 454 would eat it on top end, and quite often last longer. the 429 ford was a great engine, but gm's 427 was better. i have owned several 427's in single axle dump trucks, they are tough as nails, and stout. as for blameing ford for the 6. 0 issues, i cant agree with that either. international is responsible for it's share of the 6. 0 probs as well, head gaskets come to mind. ih chose to use 10 small head bolts on each head, not ford. turbo issues were not fords idea either, ih made the choice in turbos. egr's, which accounted for many of the 6. 0's issues, were fords baby. many folks blamed dodge for the lift pump issues on the 24v engine, nope, cummins chose that one, and it's used on many different app's. the big three have turned out some very fine products, as well as some dud's. but when it comes to useing others engine's[diesels] a fair share of the designs issues, is do to the supplier. as for the topic at hand, i also have no doubt that ford can build a fine diesel engine on it's own. many of their tractors engines were very well built, and some were even shared with the medium truck market [ford trucks]back in the 80's.

 

[Grizzly]

i cant quite agree with this. keep in mind, i'am a gm person at heart. overall and depending on years, ford built many very good engine's, some cases better then gm. the 351 in most cases was a better performer then the 350gm, and in the earlier years, lasted longer. the 302 in nearly every case was better then a gm 305. the 300 6cyl ford in most years was a better engine then any 6cyl gm ever had[ except the 305 gmc 6cyl]. the 460 was a great lowend puller, but the 454 would eat it on top end, and quite often last longer. the 429 ford was a great engine, but gm's 427 was better. i have owned several 427's in single axle dump trucks, they are tough as nails, and stout. as for blameing ford for the 6. 0 issues, i cant agree with that either. international is responsible for it's share of the 6. 0 probs as well, head gaskets come to mind. ih chose to use 10 small head bolts on each head, not ford. turbo issues were not fords idea either, ih made the choice in turbos. egr's, which accounted for many of the 6. 0's issues, were fords baby. many folks blamed dodge for the lift pump issues on the 24v engine, nope, cummins chose that one, and it's used on many different app's. the big three have turned out some very fine products, as well as some dud's. but when it comes to useing others engine's[diesels] a fair share of the designs issues, is do to the supplier. as for the topic at hand, i also have no doubt that ford can build a fine diesel engine on it's own. many of their tractors engines were very well built, and some were even shared with the medium truck market [ford trucks]back in the 80's.

I am impressed with your knowledge of engines, which is far more then I know, however I have been around for a long time and have had much experience with cars, trucks and their engines. I worked for a government agency for 34 years, now retired. My work with the Corps of Engineers required me to perform a great amount of field work in which I drove a government car or most of the time a 1/2, 3/4 and one ton trucks from our motor pool. In my experience, the worst trucks and engines were International followed by Ford. The best truck and engines were Dodge and then Chevy. Now Dodge rode rough and felt like they had concrete shock absorbers. This was before the 2nd generation. With my own personal vehicles, I never had luck with Ford anything. GM were much better. I never had a Dodge until I purchased my 95 Dodge 3500 DRW new. That was the very best vehicle I've ever had. I have rebuilt a few engines, however I don't think I want to get into one of todays engines. Right now my vehicles are my 05 Dodge truck and my 03 Toyota Avalon, also my wife's 03 Toyota Camry. Dodge trucks and Toyota cars, the best of both worlds.

 

[KDHannink]

Coalsmoke and Gary, both of you have made some good points. I do agree with you Gary that Ford does have the engineering and manufacturing capabilities to design and build engines, but I am not impressed with any engines Ford has produced on their own, with the exception of the current V-10, which is a good engine, but doesn't have the torque and is a gas hog. The 360 and 390 gassers stunk, the 460 was powerful, but stunk. Ford hot rod builders typically use Chevy 350 engines. On the other hand GM and Dodge have had some great gas engines. The biggest problem with the 6. 0 and 6. 4 Powerjoke is not so much Navistar International as is Ford dictating how they want it built.

Hey! I disagree about the 390's. I had one ["them" actually] in a 1975 4x4 that would easily get 10 mpg and would last at least a full year before I had to yank it out. Tongue in cheek, but it did live a hard life... The Cummins with ~20 mpg is sooo nice, so is a/c etc. Torque at 1200 rpm is too, which is non-existent in the 98 F450 7. 3 delivery truck

 

[JUeckert]

grizzly. the knoweldge comes from spending many an hr in a engine machine shop. talking with folks who own various equipment/vehicles, and do different things with them. dirt track racers, and drag racers both taught me quite a bit also. being a 3rd gen contractor and logger has put me in direct contact with bigger stuff for over 30years. i learned the creed long ago, buy what works, and not what you have to work on. you will have more money in the bank at the end of the week that way. every brand has great engines, every brand has dud's, same goes for the drivetrain that hooks behind those engines also.

 

[AKaiser]

There are some differences between ford's 7. 3 and the international DT444 engines (E series). The DT444 IMHO is neither a great engine nor a horrible engine, but it is definitely not on the same field as an ISB and is not really a medium duty engine, even though it may have been branded as such. Now the DT466 is a real medium duty engine.

First, it's a T444E. DTs are all inline 6 motors. They use T444Es in buses and some smaller MD trucks where a small overall space requirement is desirable and/or a lighter load capacity required. Otherwise, they put a DT466 in it. I'm the last person on earth to argue the merits of a V motor, or a PowerStroke, but the basis for the engine is NOT a light duty engine. Now, the 6. 0, I can't vouch for. I've seen the T444E and it's no light duty engine.



International : T444 E



Secondly, I give your vouch for the DT466 a definite second. We have had 3 DT motors on the farm for over 20 years each (a fourth in a dozer for about 10 or so, don't know much about it):



1. a DT466 in a 1982 IH 5488 that's never been touched, other than the turbo, and it's been pulling well over rated HP of 180something [closer to 300]. The maintenance chief at the now defunct dealer said he shouldn't have to worry about the engine. We've had to rebuild the transmission due to the higher than stock HP, and fix the differential.



2. A DT436 in a 1981 1460 combine. Never touched the engine. It is getting weak, so I suspect it needs some fuel sys rebuilding.



3. A DT414 in a 1975 IH 1066 that's only been rebuilt once (about 2 years ago) because a main bearing spun.



We had one of these at work testing it for Navistar: International Truck and Engine Corporation notice, it has a VT365 (base for the 6. 0). It's a very nice rig.

 

[Ncostello]

Ford has the resources to build a decent diesel. Heck... they used to build their own didn't they? Wasn't it the 7. 8L heavy truck engine?



Big three buys diesels because they don't have to develop and spend the cash on tooling up to build. But if push came to shove... any of them could develop one. Its just an engine. They all know how to design engines. Given some decent engineers and some cash... it can be done.



Marketing wise... I think its bad. People tend to WANT to know that their engine in the truck is CAT or Cummins or Navistar or Detroit. Just like the big rigs. People like that. Just my opinion.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Ford has the resources to build a decent diesel. Heck... they used to build their own didn't they? Wasn't it the 7. 8L heavy truck engine?



Big three buys diesels because they don't have to develop and spend the cash on tooling up to build. But if push came to shove... any of them could develop one. Its just an engine. They all know how to design engines. Given some decent engineers and some cash... it can be done.



Marketing wise... I think its bad. People tend to WANT to know that their engine in the truck is CAT or Cummins or Navistar or Detroit. Just like the big rigs. People like that. Just my opinion.

The cash is where Ford has been falling short in the last couple of platforms. I can't help but think this trend will continue to prevail, even if they build their own.

 

[rbattelle]

People tend to WANT to know that their engine in the truck is CAT or Cummins or Navistar or Detroit.

In general I agree with you, but in the case of the "average" Ford owner I don't think he has the slightest clue his engine is an International. I think your average Ford owner thinks the Powerstroke is made by Ford.



It's funny, where I work there's a guy with an F-350 7. 3. He has International stickers and logos all over that thing! Every time I see it I think, "geez, we get the point, it's not a Ford engine!"



I also notice a lot of Fords with "Cat" mudflaps or stickers.



Ryan

 

[Coalsmoke]

In general I agree with you, but in the case of the "average" Ford owner I don't think he has the slightest clue his engine is an International. I think your average Ford owner thinks the Powerstroke is made by Ford.

It's funny, where I work there's a guy with an F-350 7. 3. He has International stickers and logos all over that thing! Every time I see it I think, "geez, we get the point, it's not a Ford engine!"

I also notice a lot of Fords with "Cat" mudflaps or stickers.

Ryan

Yes, I've met a couple of adamant ford owners telling me how they have a CAT power plant and how it is so superior to the Cummins. I ask them to show me the Finning engine plate, after a bit of looking they stop blabbering nonsense PDQ.

 

[Yo Hoot]

In general I agree with you, but in the case of the "average" Ford owner I don't think he has the slightest clue his engine is an International. I think your average Ford owner thinks the Powerstroke is made by Ford.



It's funny, where I work there's a guy with an F-350 7. 3. He has International stickers and logos all over that thing! Every time I see it I think, "geez, we get the point, it's not a Ford engine!"



I also notice a lot of Fords with "Cat" mudflaps or stickers.



Ryan

Now that's funny and soo true. Besides, looking under the hood, I don't know how anybody can tell what it is except a nightmare.



Mike

 

[SierraRam]

You got to give Ford credit, they have always been good at stuffing 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound box.



SR