Front Diff Worthless

[crobertson1]

While trying to pull my 700 lb atv out from being stuck in a snow bank with my '04. 5, I had a heck of a time. Granted there wasn't much traction, but geez, I was disappointed.



I had the truck in 4 low and had to yank pretty hard 4-5 times. My son was watching and said the front wheels would spin briefly then stop spinning. At the same time, the rears were spinning. I would crank the steering wheel right and left trying to get the front to engage. That would work for a second then they wouldn't spin anymore. When he first started to watch, he thought I didn't have it in 4x4. The truck has the "off road package" which includes the 4. 10 anti spin rearend. The tires are brand new, literally. They are BFG Rugged Trail T/As.



I thought I would be able to pull the atv right out with no problem at all. I would think it should have been a peice of cake. Any thoughts? Are there any clutches in the front diff that could be out of adjustment or something like that?

 

[Bertram65]

If the both or one of the rears were spinning and neither of the fronts were spinning at all there is problem with your transfer case. the front being an open differential with the anti spin rear at best give you 3 wheel drive. Those tires wear well but at terrible in the rain or snow, I just replaced mine though they still have a good 20k miles left in them.

 

[cojhl2]

These transfer cases do not have a diff in them,, therefore at least one wheel on each axle has to move.



The best way to pull with a 4WD pickup is to hook to the front and pull backwards.



Reason: Pickups have no weight on the back so it just spins easily, and what little torque the rears are causing lifts the front up so it isn's worth a sh. . either.



Pull in reverse and from the front!!

 

[K5IP]

Unless you did not have it all the way into 4whd, this cannot happen if the transfer case is working correctly.

 

[JHardwick]

The best way to pull with a 4WD pickup is to hook to the front and pull backwards.

Thats a good way to bust a ring and pinion

One good wheel hop or jerk and it could be all over!

 

[cojhl2]

Thats a good way to bust a ring and pinion

One good wheel hop or jerk and it could be all over!

Hmm,,, why is that? Are they not as strong in reverse?



Or I guess one could assume with all that good traction the driver would be careless.



But that would be the case also when pulling from the rear if the pickup had good traction.



I would be worried also about where to hook on the front if there were no pull hooks installed.

 

[Regcabguy]

Snatch 'em strap

I always carry a "snatch 'em" strap. It has a degree of elasticity so you get a running start and "boing 'em" out. Minimal damage to either vehicle.

 

[crobertson1]

..... the front wheels would spin briefly then stop spinning. At the same time, the rears were spinning. I would crank the steering wheel right and left trying to get the front to engage. That would work for a second then they wouldn't spin anymore. ... Are there any clutches in the front diff that could be out of adjustment or something like that?

Guys, the issue wasn't which way to pull from or if I was using a snatch strap, which I was. The issue was why the fronts would spin briefly, then stop spinning, like the power to the front diff went away. The truck was fully engaged in 4 low, the front wheels would start to spin then seemingly stop sppinning WHILE the rears were spinning. My point is, the task at hand would have been easier if the front differential was helping, which it seems like it wasn't.

 

[JStrasser]

As was previously mentioned, if your transfer case is working correctly one of the front wheels will always be turning when you are in 4wd. In 4wd, the front and rear driveshafts are 100% locked together.



It is not possible for both of the front wheels to stop turning when the rears are still moving (if your T-case is working properly). If both front wheels stopped moving, it is a transfer case problem, but not the front differential.



John

 

[jakprince]

Is your son sure that both front wheels stopped at the same time and it wasn't just doing a side to side thing.

 

[NUKEMAN]

I had a '96 that would periodically have this problem. I would shift into 4 wheel, the light on the dash would illuminate "4x4", but the front wheels would only drive about 50% of the time. Seems it was the vacuum canister on the front axle that activates the front hubs. For some reason it kept going out. I had it replaced 4 times while I owned the POS.



Not sure if our CTD trucks even have this vacuum system for 4 wheel drive, but it sounds like the exact problem I used to have.

 

[steved]

I had a '96 that would periodically have this problem. I would shift into 4 wheel, the light on the dash would illuminate "4x4", but the front wheels would only drive about 50% of the time. Seems it was the vacuum canister on the front axle that activates the front hubs. For some reason it kept going out. I had it replaced 4 times while I owned the POS.



Not sure if our CTD trucks even have this vacuum system for 4 wheel drive, but it sounds like the exact problem I used to have.

3rd gens do not have the CAD that was present on the 2nd gens... they are more/less direct drive with the only "disconnect" being the tcase...



Before I pointed at the tcase, I would in fact make sure the front was NOT engaging by jacking the front up and engaging the tcase... you should not be able to spin the front driveshaft with the front wheels off the ground. I would sooner think it appeared as the front wheels were not spinning, but were simply doing the side to side thing...



As for the breaking of the R&P in reverse... R&Ps are designed stronger in forward by design, putting them in reverse can cause a undue strain on the ring. I would not pull in reverse... placing strain on things not really designed for strain in that direction, including suspension components.



steved

 

[CBrahs]

Hmm,,, why is that? Are they not as strong in reverse?



Or I guess one could assume with all that good traction the driver would be careless.



But that would be the case also when pulling from the rear if the pickup had good traction.



I would be worried also about where to hook on the front if there were no pull hooks installed.

It is not that they are not as strong in reverse it is this: Imagine the ring and pinion and the truck in drive (going forward). The pinion is wanting to go into the ring and when in reverse the pinion is wanting to go away from the ring and if there is a wheel hop then there is slack and then a sudden load and that is where the failure come from.



On a lighter note, I see that you live in Waitsburg as well. I hauled a ton of cattle out of that area and Rodeo stock too. Good to see someone from familur stompin grounds.

 

[JHardwick]

Guys, the issue wasn't which way to pull from or if I was using a snatch strap, which I was. The issue was why the fronts would spin briefly, then stop spinning, like the power to the front diff went away. The truck was fully engaged in 4 low, the front wheels would start to spin then seemingly stop sppinning WHILE the rears were spinning. My point is, the task at hand would have been easier if the front differential was helping, which it seems like it wasn't.

It was, it was just transfering power left/right and right/left ... ... ... . it's normal. It looks like the front end is acting up, but all the power is there.

 

[JHardwick]

It is not that they are not as strong in reverse it is this: Imagine the ring and pinion and the truck in drive (going forward). The pinion is wanting to go into the ring and when in reverse the pinion is wanting to go away from the ring and if there is a wheel hop then there is slack and then a sudden load and that is where the failure come from.

Actually, a ring and pinion is a directional gear, and is weaker in reverse rotation. I agree that a pickup is weighted to pull better backwards, but the ring and pinion is designed to pull forward. The best scenerio is to pull forward while being above the "towee", loading the rear as well.

 

[MMeier]

I would not pull in reverse... placing strain on things not really designed for strain in that direction, including suspension components.



steved

That, and if something should happen to the strap, chain, or whatever you're using to pull with should break, you'd have a damn fine view of the thing coming at you through your windshield. . or taking out a A/C condenser, IC or some other hi $$$ piece.

 

[MMiller]

Did BOTH front wheels stop spinning at the same time? Would the right one spin, then the left, then the right? If traction was coming and going to the front tires, it would likely spin the easiest tire, and the other would stop.



Now, if both tires stopped spinning, then started again, AT THE SAME time, then something is wrong. Was there any banging, clanging, grinding going on? If they stopped at the same time, and then started, I'd think that there would be significant noise involved.



I've pulled on people in reverse before, I don't like doing it. Then again, I'm usually trying to loosen a stuck fullsize truck from deep mud. Our front ends are fairly tough, you'd have to yank pretty hard to break them.



Michael

 

[crobertson1]

OK, well it sounds like maybe it was transferring power from left to right. I'll jack up the front end and see if I can turn the front driveshaft in 4 low. I suppose it could be possible that it was only a case of not nearly enough traction on the snow/ice. I know, maybe I'll hook it up to tree and have my son watch again. Maybe not.



So there are no clutches in the differential or T-case that could be out of spec huh?



Thanks.

 

[KParsons]

heavy stone

you guys are right. you must have big weight in the bed to pull stuck things. i pulled a small bulldozer with a 94 ford gaser in low range in 4wheel drive, i also had 5000lbs of stone in back. and a locker rear! kp

 

[crobertson1]

Did BOTH front wheels stop spinning at the same time? Would the right one spin, then the left, then the right? If traction was coming and going to the front tires, it would likely spin the easiest tire, and the other would stop.



Now, if both tires stopped spinning, then started again, AT THE SAME time, then something is wrong. Was there any banging, clanging, grinding going on? If they stopped at the same time, and then started, I'd think that there would be significant noise involved.



I've pulled on people in reverse before, I don't like doing it. Then again, I'm usually trying to loosen a stuck fullsize truck from deep mud. Our front ends are fairly tough, you'd have to yank pretty hard to break them.



Michael

There was NO noise at all (except the exhaust and turbo ). I would've thought there would be some klunking or grinding to if there had been a problem with either the T-case popping in and out of 4x4. I'm starting to think that it was just switching power from side to side.