Front End Bouncing Violently (already have Kore)

[Patriot_RAM]

Hey Guys,



I have not had any problems with my suspension, front end, etc until tonight on the way home from work. I was driving at about 80 - 90mph and hit some descent sized bumps in the pavement, fairly close to each other. The next thing I know, it feels like the front end (wheels, tires, etc) is coming out from under the truck. It seemed like the wheels were bouncing violently off the ground. I still had control and could steer, but not much. I let off the accelerator and let it slow down. It finally started to fade at 45 and went away by 40. I sped up to 55 and continued home with no other problems.



I have the DRC Race suspension on my truck. The front end has the bilstein 9100 shocks. I'm willing to bet that if it had happened with a smaller shock, I would have lost it because of the corner I was on. Any ideas why this happened? It never happened before the Kore suspension, nor after until now. And believe me -- I have "tested" it before with no problems.



I haven't looked at the truck yet, but I don't think it bounced hard enough to cause any damage. It drove straight afterward. I just don't want it to happen again!



Let me know what your thoughts are -- I have had it aligned recently and they caster was fine at that time.

 

[FullSack]

Death Wobble???



I had it a while back, did some research and thought it was my 2" leveling kit. Took that off and had a "lighter" version of the death wobble the other day. I'm now convinced that it's the 315's I'm running. As soon as they wear down, I'm going back to the factory specs. The Dodge engineers didn't design my truck for aftermarket parts, so I'm put it back the way they engineered it.

 

[PHeadings]

High speeds will help bring on a first time occurence. Just because you spent alot of $$ on the Kore system don't think thats your ticket for no death wobble.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I would bet that there are a few things happening to cause the DW. Give me a call on Saturday David and we can discuss some solutions. It will happen again if not chased down right away. I had a DW happen on a truck with the same symptoms before. It ended up having worn out Ball Joints, Tie Rod Ends and the BFG tire you are running. CUstomer was Curtis Cool. I spent 12 hours working on his truck to no avail. The next day, his dealer replaced the said parts plus a bad hub and it was better. I sent him a set of Toyo Open Country MT's and the DW is gone. The 315 BFG is a major cause of DW. I don't know why but it has happened to numerous people with spacers and 315's. Call me tomorrow and I can help diagnose the problem.

Greg

 

[Bertram65]

I do not think the BFG 315s are the cause, the altered geometry of the suspension is most likely the cause. If you do a search on DW you will find very few who have had it with stock suspension and either stock tires or larger, almost all the cases are with altered suspension.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Actually Bert,

I have people calling all the time asking about DW. Suspension is not the cause. It is worn parts, inferior tires and improper alignment. We deal with this stuff all the time. Go ahead and do some searches, you will find that the cause was usually a bad tie rod end or a set of 315's. I am in no way trying to take attention away from the suspension. I hear about stock trucks that had DW. My truck had DW when stock and I have posted about it before. Suspension did not cure DW either. That BFG tire is the worst tire ever. I appreciate your opinion but I feel it is a little misdirected. The KORE suspension does not change the stock geometries. It sits a truck just like the Snow Plow Prep springs do or the Power Wagon.



Greg DRC

 

[Subby]

It's interesting how some get DW and others don't, even with similar setups. I have an 03 QC SB 4X4 CTD that has 53K on the ticker and has had 2" spacers and 305/70-17 Goodyear MTRs from day one (******* installed). I'm on the 2nd set of MTRs, have it 4X a lot in conditions ranging from dry and very rocky to muddy mountain roads to snow covered fields. I dont beat the hell out of it but I'm not afraid to go where I want to go. I mention all this because I've have never had the DW and, although I have not checked my ball joints/tire rods in around 20K miles, would think my front end is started to get a little loose even though I can't feel it in the wheel. One day we will get down to the true culprit(s). I'm going to find some wood to knock on now!

 

[Subby]

You edited me for putting "*******" instead of "dealer"? This is getting out of hand. Seems like there will always be people who find power a little too intoxicating.

 

[Patriot_RAM]

I'm about ready for a set of new tires, but I cannot find anybody anywhere that has 35 x12. 50 / 17 in stock in a load range E except for a couple of off-brands. My personal preference would be the Toyo M/T, but those, as well as Nitto and some others, are on national backorder.

 

[Bertram65]

Actually Bert,

I have people calling all the time asking about DW. Suspension is not the cause. It is worn parts, inferior tires and improper alignment. We deal with this stuff all the time. Go ahead and do some searches, you will find that the cause was usually a bad tie rod end or a set of 315's. I am in no way trying to take attention away from the suspension. I hear about stock trucks that had DW. My truck had DW when stock and I have posted about it before. Suspension did not cure DW either. That BFG tire is the worst tire ever. I appreciate your opinion but I feel it is a little misdirected. The KORE suspension does not change the stock geometries. It sits a truck just like the Snow Plow Prep springs do or the Power Wagon.



Greg DRC

That is fine, but as long as the front of the truck sits higher than it did before the suspension was installed without longer control arms the geometry is altered, the front suspension moves in a arc, the lower it goes the further back it comes tilting the axle forward at the top as it goes. I have the snow plow prep on my truck, I have run BFG 315s and had no problems on stock suspension, I still say there are very few who have had DW with stock suspension, I did not say none, just very few, if you read about it here it is probably pretty accurate to say 90% of the poeple who have had it have altered suspension.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I've got DW just about licked. Drove 2000 miles this week on vacation. Often 75-80 mph. No DW



I am convinced that my BFG's are the cause on my truck. Everything else is in check. Before vacation I had a close call DW one time. I rotated the tires before our trip and no close calls on the 2000 mile trip.



BFG's especiallty the 315 Hummer equipped tires are pretty much known to contribute. Rotating the tires confirmed that inconsistancies in these soft side wall tires make a difference where they are mounted.



I will not be putting my truck back to stock. I love it the way it is. Sure it (leveling kit) probably contributes a little but I have done enough to feel I have it licked. Tweek here and there with the caster adjustment and better tires is the key. The stabilizer bar drop blocks really made a big difference too. Part of getting the geometry closer to stock.



I WILL be getting E rated 35's as soon as these balloons wear out.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I'm about ready for a set of new tires, but I cannot find anybody anywhere that has 35 x12. 50 / 17 in stock in a load range E except for a couple of off-brands. My personal preference would be the Toyo M/T, but those, as well as Nitto and some others, are on national backorder.

David,

I have been sourcing tires for a while. The Interco company ( Super Swamper) has an E Rated 35" tire. There is also the Parnelli Jones Dirt Grip in a 35" E Rated tire.



Greg

 

[PHeadings]

Death Wobble comes with every truck! It depends what you do with you truck (lifts,tires,shocks,drive over 80,ect) to make it come out. Don't just hope it goes away, because it doesn't. After a few occurrences it will start damaging other components making it harder to put it back in hibernation. There is no one cure, but there is one thing for certain, I just saved 380. 00 dollars with Geico Insurance.

 

[Regcabguy]

Good one!

Death Wobble comes with every truck! It depends what you do with you truck (lifts,tires,shocks,drive over 80,ect) to make it come out. Don't just hope it goes away, because it doesn't. After a few occurrences it will start damaging other components making it harder to put it back in hibernation. There is no one cure, but there is one thing for certain, I just saved 380. 00 dollars with Geico Insurance.

Thanks for the lighter note! Yuk! Yuk!

 

[Yo Hoot]

While I was out at Indy this year I made it a point to ask people with lifted third gens if they had problems. None that I asked had any issues and none of them had BFG's.

 

[Hohn]

Death Wobble???



I had it a while back, did some research and thought it was my 2" leveling kit. Took that off and had a "lighter" version of the death wobble the other day. I'm now convinced that it's the 315's I'm running. As soon as they wear down, I'm going back to the factory specs. The Dodge engineers didn't design my truck for aftermarket parts, so I'm put it back the way they engineered it.

What's ironic is that I had a BAD case of DW when my truck was stock with about 26K on it.



When I first got to Cheyenne, I hit a strecth of I-25 near a bridge, and the expansion joints set it off. HOLY CRAP!!



After that, I decided to level the front end. After installing a DT track bar, Bilstein 5100HDs, and the Skyjacker D25s.



Since then, the front end has been rock-solid with great steering and no hint of DW. It corners like a sports car! I love the digressive valving of the 5100s.

 

[JCrockett]

If the BFG 315 size tires in load range D are PART of the problem. Do you guys think that a different brand tire say the Cooper Disvoerer ATR in the same size and rating will still give some DW problems or should we stick to load range E tires to eliminate the TIRE part of the equation??? Just wondering because I was going to buy a set of Cooper Discover ATR to go with my DRC/Kore system. Boardman, do you think that is a good tire to use or should I stick with the load range E in a 315/35 size tire. I just can't find a E rated tire in that size here in AK and can't afford the Toyo's right now.

Thanks

 

[blake underwood]

Hey Guys,



I have not had any problems with my suspension, front end, etc until tonight on the way home from work. I was driving at about 80 - 90mph and hit some descent sized bumps in the pavement, fairly close to each other. The next thing I know, it feels like the front end (wheels, tires, etc) is coming out from under the truck. It seemed like the wheels were bouncing violently off the ground. I still had control and could steer, but not much. I let off the accelerator and let it slow down. It finally started to fade at 45 and went away by 40. I sped up to 55 and continued home with no other problems.



I have the DRC Race suspension on my truck. The front end has the bilstein 9100 shocks. I'm willing to bet that if it had happened with a smaller shock, I would have lost it because of the corner I was on. Any ideas why this happened? It never happened before the Kore suspension, nor after until now. And believe me -- I have "tested" it before with no problems.



I haven't looked at the truck yet, but I don't think it bounced hard enough to cause any damage. It drove straight afterward. I just don't want it to happen again!



Let me know what your thoughts are -- I have had it aligned recently and they caster was fine at that time.

PATRIOT_Ram-



I had the exact scenario as you. My '04 never had the DW stock or w/KORE. Then one day driving to WA from AZ while I was just about to LV I hit a bad patch of road at 80+ MPH and the wheels felt like they were gonna fall off. I think the KORE saved my butt that day from going off the road.



THE FIX:



I went with tie rods from the '05 Rams and have ran them for 4 months HARD, and I CANNOT get the DW to happen. I've tried at speed of 100 MPH on rough roads w/ DIPS, BUMPS, CONSTRUCTION, oh and RoAdKiLl and I still have not had any DW come back.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I suppose the 05's have a different tie rod then?

 

[DIESELMAN]

That is fine, but as long as the front of the truck sits higher than it did before the suspension was installed without longer control arms the geometry is altered, the front suspension moves in a arc, the lower it goes the further back it comes tilting the axle forward at the top as it goes. I have the snow plow prep on my truck, I have run BFG 315s and had no problems on stock suspension, I still say there are very few who have had DW with stock suspension, I did not say none, just very few, if you read about it here it is probably pretty accurate to say 90% of the poeple who have had it have altered suspension.

I've had DW with stock suspension, and lifted suspensions, and cured it.



As to geometry, not Exactly, this is true of the FORD front suspension with a SINGLE trailing arm, Dodge has 4 links. On a ford the axle rotates so that lowering the axle (lifting) rotates the axle forward, decreasing caster and necesitating dropped trailing arm brackets equal to the drop of the axle(lift).



On our dodges, the axle is trailed by four links. on each side there is a link above and a link below the axle, these trail back to frame mounting points that are about the same distance apart as they attach to the axle. The effect is that as the axle moves down the lower arm 'pushes' the bottom of the axle tube forward, and the top arm 'pulls' the top of the tube rearward by the same amount, the caster angle does not change.



Now the true geometry is improvised a bit as the spacing isn't the same at both ends of the links, the lengths of the top and bottom arms are offset to account for this and there is a bit of bias so that the caster angle will increase on compression which aids in return to center feel when you are driving over curbs and such.



The actual loss of caster even at 4" of lift is only about 0. 5 degrees, no where near enough to cause DW. (An old Ford F150 swung +/- 5 degrees!).



DW is caused by worn ball joints, tie rod ends, track bar, steering gear, soft or uneven sidewall pressures or stiffness ( want DW, put on BFG 315's and stagger the tire pressure 10 pounds).



Lifting keeps the caster roughly the same, pulls the axle rearward (looks wierd in the wheelwell without extending the trailing arms, really high lifts run out of bar angle/range and need dropped brackets, but not at a resonable 4" lift) and shifts the axle to the side (also strange if you don't change or drop the track bar, but the axle moves side to side during action anyway so the adjustment is only for looks at ride height), and dropping the track bar requires dropping the pitman arm to maintain absolute parallel alignment of the steering and track bars to prevent 'bump' steer.



However, factory alignment sucks and so do most alignment shops. The Caster Cams allow the axle to be twisted all out of proportion causing excessive cross camber caster angles even when overall caster is correct, and tramlining or uneasy feel on a crowned road. If you can't drive your stock truck comfortably with one finger, repair whats wrong, re-align it, then lift it. Don't lift or add 'performance' components to cure the problem or you'll be chasing your tail and cussing your vendor because it will amplify the problem.



DM