Fuel Dilution 6.7 Crankcase/Technet Bulletin

[Austin Diesel]

Crankcase oil never low but thin as Heck.



My Service Manager says Cummins/Dodge are trying to wash their hands of this issue. It appears that I have oil up to the top of the plastic marker on the dipstick at 3000 miles. And I noted it in my dealer service file. Another ECM Flash for this EVIC console oil dilution problem. Seems that my FS2500 aux filter is useless due to more frequent oil changes at 13. 5 qts plus 2 filters $$$$.



EGR/DPF partial system Regen occurring during in town driving. Fuel dilution flagged as critical at 8 %. during last oil sample/change. I am watching oil sample metal content closely.



I do not idle much at all.



"Officially Dealer said damage could occur due to lack of timely oil changes".

Unofficially he said this service issue is becoming more recurrent and documented on 6. 7 motors.



Report Says driving in "City/Town for short trips is bad" ,And visual teardown will verify bearing /cylinder damage and if noted caused by "neglect" due to infrequent oil changes, not emissions exhaust setup.



He said other brands are having the same problems also.



To bad I have the big payment book on this model with engineering and design problems due to exhaust config from the factory and cannot modify as I need the warranty after the last new turbo and ecm udates and exhaust wrap stuff ,



All seems well for the moment No CELs lately at 25K miles. For Sale Soon if this keeps up. Never had a brand "NEW" vehicle with so many bugs, I have lost confidence in this design due to trips to the dealer for warranty repairs,

I would strip all this stuff off if i could get away with it and pass emissions & inspections.



2010 model could have revised exhaust system to fix this problem?$$$$





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[HBarlow]

Does your normal driving include a lot of short trips and probable incomplete regen cycles as mentioned on the sheet you showed?

 

[Trashdawg]

You could try what they do with the new Fords and leave the oil a quart low, to allow for fuel. Are you starting with 12 qts when you service your 6. 7L?

 

[Austin Diesel]

When i bought the Truck it was 100% interstate driving 70 plus MPH for the first 12,000 miles till the first CEL/turbo cleaning egr de sooting all highway driving and no idling , i was hoping i would be absolved from the issues other TDR members were experiencing with the 08 rams.



now i have put less oil in on the last oil change also. It is over the top of the plastic tip on the dipstick now at 3000 miles on the oil. Because i live on the outskirts of austin and usually drive the car to run errands but this fuel/crankcase dilution crap is crazy .



Done all updates and babyied this vehicle with perfect maintainance schedules. and made the dealer note the climbing oil levels when they put in the new turbo at the 17,000 mile mark and that was during the highway driving segments.



The FS-2500 aux oil filter holds 1. 5 qts on top of the regular crankcase fill



Done 2 oil samples with highway driving and one with combination city highway driving

showing fuel dilution with all driving modes,



guess i should restrict my use of the truck so i wont mess it up and make my dang payment next week.



the regens/egr system is filling the crankcase washing the cyls down ,



This truck's emission system is not designed to be driven in the city at all . they should have used the adblue /urea injection mercedes setup from the get go .



Wonder how this issue is fairing with the Sterling delivery truck setups with the 6. 7 ?



just made a 1700 mile run to kansas city mo from austin hauling crane rigging parts at about 18. 5 to 19. 5 mpg at 75 to 82 mph at about 2025 rpm's all went well .



Austin Diesel

 

[HBarlow]

It sounds like your local dealer is not providing much help. Try pming or e-mailing TDR member Mike Mullenax who I just learned yesterday is a Dodge-Cummins tech at a Dodge dealership over in Athens in East Texas. He has posted his e-mail address over on the thread titled "Code P2262 Revisited. " Mike seems to be very knowledgeable on the new ISB6. 7 engines and has invited TDR members to contact him or come see him. Athens is not too far from Austin where you are.

Mike may be able to help or provide technical information and advice that would assist you in getting your local dealer to help. I plan to take my '08 C&C to Mike in a couple of months to have the upgraded software reflashes loaded in the ECM.

 

[Austin Diesel]

6.7 ocrankcase oil dilution

It sounds like your local dealer is not providing much help. Try pming or e-mailing TDR member Mike Mullenax who I just learned yesterday is a Dodge-Cummins tech at a Dodge dealership over in Athens in East Texas. He has posted his e-mail address over on the thread titled "Code P2262 Revisited. " Mike seems to be very knowledgeable on the new ISB6. 7 engines and has invited TDR members to contact him or come see him. Athens is not too far from Austin where you are.



Mike may be able to help or provide technical information and advice that would assist you in getting your local dealer to help. I plan to take my '08 C&C to Mike in a couple of months to have the upgraded software reflashes loaded in the ECM.

I have had all the newest ecm flashes done in Jan 09 when they put the turbo and exhaust wrap in and even had them put the little "dodge sticker on the bottom of the hood where they write the current ecm flash and the mechanic intitials" it also.



Athens Tx is up by Corsicana maybe 120 miles northeast from Austin.



Well my dealer has been pretty good to me officially he does what the factory wil let him do and my truck is current with the updates etc. but he is a 70 mile drive from me and the big city dealerships are less than pleasent to deal with because they are so busy .



Then i ask him unofficially what is up with this design and he says that the engine has to many computer functions and emissions complications that have caused many of the above mentioned service issues and that the newer ones are even more complicated but still the same basic setup



Ford and chevy are havng similar problems also.



The original adblue mercedes setup was better as it has less exhaust function restrictions with urea injection but it did not make the production cut.



maybe the new 10 models will be revised ?



The EGR sooting is problematic also as regen washes fuel into the crankcase system.



City driving is bad for this truck and i cant void my warranty yet by bypassing and removing this emission junk which seems to correct the problems from what ive read then there is the inspection issue by altering emission equipment. sucks



I know the sterlings have this 6. 7 set up and how they are doing in city urban delivery work seems all 6. 7 are having this issue and i made this comment to my dealer way before this TSB was issued and made him note it in my truck service logs back in nov 08.



a 60 oil day change interval seems somewhat expensive $$$$$ and should be preventable?





The only mod this truck has is that i removed the muffler and installed a Manaflow dual 4" exhaust from the dpf back.





I will try to contact Mike M.



Thanks

 

[JFortney]

As just being a new owner of a 2008 truck with the 6. 7 I been following this thread. Everyone mentions a short drive cycle, what does a short drive cycle consist of. Plus how long do you have to drive for the regenerating cycle to do its thing is it in miles driven or time running. Thanks Jim

 

[HBarlow]

Austin Diesel: You won't want to hear this but just removing the muffler might contribute to your problem. Reducing back pressure, improving exhaust flow, could possibly reduce the ECM's ability to clean the accumulated soot from the DPF.

My '08 C&C has had no issues in 48,000 miles and a couple of other TDR member C&C members have also had no issues. The issues may be worse with the pickups.

Jfivespeed: There are lots of older threads on the new ISB6. 7 engines and regeneration. I suggest you search them out and read all of them. None of us know a lot about them yet but the old threads do contain a lot of accumulated TDR knowledge.

The regen process takes about 30 mins cruising at highway speed to accomplish but it is more complicated than that. There are both active and passive regeneration modes determined by the ECM and only experience behind the wheel will allow you to detect when your truck is in the regen mode.

 

[Bob4x4]

The latest software allows regen at idle if nec,the soot produced has dropped and the 2262 codes may become a thing of the past..... it is getting better

 

[Bob4x4]

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

The 6. 7L Cummins Diesel engine package includes a number of exhaust after treatment

components which are required to meet the stringent 2010 EPA NoX and Particulate matter

emissions. The system includes a Cooled EGR system, a sulfur oxide catalyst, nitrogen oxide

catalyst, and a Diesel Particulate Filter. Installing any aftermarket add-on components to the engine

system could render these systems inoperable, or cause severe damage to the components.

 

[HBarlow]

As just being a new owner of a 2008 truck with the 6. 7 I been following this thread. Everyone mentions a short drive cycle, what does a short drive cycle consist of. Plus how long do you have to drive for the regenerating cycle to do its thing is it in miles driven or time running. Thanks Jim

I didn't completely answer your question earlier. A short drive cycle is not clearly defined but some owners drive short distances to work, shopping, etc. apparently without sufficient highway cruise or towing/hauling operation to allow complete regeneration. None of us know specifics but it is safe to say that grocery getter trucks are (were) much more likely to encounter problems than trucks that tow heavy trailers and/or run lots of highway miles at high speeds.

A recent TDR article written by editor Robert Patton reported information provided by Cummins, Inc. stating that the regen occurs after a certain number of minutes of engine operation.

Owners have no way of knowing based on standard factory gauges or electronic message on the overhead. We simply can't tell what the ECM uses to trigger the regen. Some who have fancy electronic aftermarket tuner boxes as part of or integrated with fancy electronic gauge sets that are capable of measuring all sorts of complex engine operating parameters, "EDGE" product perhaps, report that the regen cycle in their trucks occurs after similar driving times on every cycle.

 

[Bob4x4]

Regen is started by a few factors,soot load being one of the most important. They have changed when it is allowed many times with the different flashes

 

[Austin Diesel]

Here is the other thing ,when my service manager handed me the Tech note note it was pinned to the top of his service desk for another customer not me i just stopped by to ask him this exact question and he handed it to me and said he would print another copy for the other guy.





so i am not the only driver with this exact same crankcase issue regardless of whether i have a muffler on it or not next have you looked into the stock muffler it does not have any holes in it larger than maybe 3/16 maybe and 1/8 and no flow deflectors to push gasses into the housing it is straight through to the other end



This is all rocket science now , and for me to drive to the grocery store or go out to eat and take the truck would all be considered short trips will cause sooting city driving is a no no ,stop and go traffic is common for all of austin.



just ran the 1700 plus miles at 70 plus no issues and all this is really discouraging does anyone know what the static pressure within the exhaust systems behind the DPF Filter to the muffler and the temp ranges ?



you know carbon sooting in the tailpipe has never been noticed at all either and back pressure is bad for any engine but none of this is noted in the 5. 9 either and many run straight pipes with no issues but they dont have the smog stuff either.

 

[HBarlow]

I'm only guessing. I have performed exactly zero tests myself and have read exactly zero articles about exhaust flow, temps in the exhaust stream, or the methods or reasoning engineers used to select the exhaust components, design parameters used by the engineers who designed and built the dpf and desoot electronics, and other related factors. In summary, I have no clue.

However, if you take an objective look at the issue, the engineers selected the muffler and other components of the exhaust system on ISB6. 7 trucks to work as a complete system.

The engineers designed and tested the sensors that measure exhaust system delta pressures and programmed and tested the software that determines when and how regen is performed.

They assumed certain givens and designed a system based on the components they installed and tested. You altered the system when you removed your muffler.

If you reduce back pressure by removing the muffler, you increase the rate of exhaust gas flow thereby reducing exhaust system temps. Reduced EGT is one of the reasons owner's give for removing mufflers or replacing OEM mufflers with aftermarket mufflers.

The emission system of our Rams utilizes fuel injected after the combustion stoke to generate heat downstream in the exhaust to burn the accumulated soot out of the dpf. The process is controlled by the ECM apparently using some sort of time counter and sensing delta pressure across the dpf. The ECM probably doesn't know the exhaust stream temperature.

Isn't it possible that reducing exhaust temp in the exhaust system upsets some of the parameters engineers utilized or designed into the system? Isn't it possible that your DPF is not being cooked at the same temp other trucks with OEM mufflers use?

I removed the muffler on my '06 leaving the rest of the system intact because I liked the sound. I had (have) gauges but don't know if removing the muffler reduced EGT any significant amount. But my '06 ISB5. 9 didn't have a DPF and didn't meet 2007 tree hugger requirements. It also did not use a regeneration process.

I would like to be able to hear the exhaust note of the mighty Cummins ISB6. 7 in my new truck but was afraid that removing the muffler would upset the engineered process of the exhaust soot trap system and cook off.

One of our members, CUMMINZ, IIRC, was the first to own and drive an '07 w/ISB6. 7 and reported that he removed the muffler on his truck immediately and noticed no difference in sound as a result.

Auto dealership service department employees sometimes write up poorly written paragraphs that attempt to describe problems they experience with certain models with the goal of saving time by using the same paragraph each time they encounter the problem. They are usually not skilled writers so a standard bullet paragraph makes their jobs easier. The fact that you say your service writer/manager handed you the test result friom another truck to describe your truck wouldn't give me much comfort.

If your doctor hands you a written diagnosis from the medical record of the patient he saw earlier how much confidence would you have in your doctor or diagnosis?

 

[Austin Diesel]

the diagnostic sheet was pulled from the Dodge tech net service bulletin site it is not a dealer write up service order or diagnostic that he wrote it is a internal Factory dodge service doc.



Inclusive to the following models:



2007,2008

DH -Ram Pickup HD, D1 -Ram Pickup 3500, DC -Ram 3500 Cab Chassis, DM -RAM 4500 / 5500 CAB CHASSIS

Another truck "like Mine was brought it in for service with the exact same oil in crankcase service issue in a 6. 7



I dont know if the other guy had a muffler installed or not and the muffler removal did tone in out slightly it has dual 5 " exits on it guess i can ask around for a pyrometer and measure some heat someday



if you look at the top of the sheet it includes many different makes and models inclusive to the 07 08 models years .



Reducing excessive engine idle time (above 20% engine idle time is generally considered excessive). Idle time is counted when there is zero vehicle speed and the throttle position is at rest (zero to 5 percent). Engine idle time is determined by dividing the total engine idle time (displayed in hours) into the total time (displayed in hours). This information can be found in trip information. Also note the total desired I completed I incomplete exhaust regenerations. If possible, also note the ignition key cycles or engine warm-up cycles. Active exhaust regenerations must complete. If a regeneration (or 'De-Soot') process does not complete during an operation cycle, during the next operating cycle the entire regeneration process will start from the beginning.

Frequent short-trip operation of the engine will result in many incomplete regeneration processes (and relatively high fuel dilution in the engine oil).



Also what are the current ECM flash "Letters" i might need to go get town and get it done again?



Austin Diesel

 

[Austin Diesel]

Dodge Tech Net Bulletin





Case Number K44264524

Vehicle Issue Engine oil level is high or may show overfull.



Year 2007,2008



Model DH -Ram Pickup HD, D1 -Ram Pickup 3500, DC -Ram 3500 Cab Chassis, DM -RAM 4500 / 5500 CAB CHASSIS



Engine 6. 7L CUMMINS TURBO DIESEL



Catagory Customer Concern (No DTCs)



System or Component : Engine Oil



Symptom : Oil Level Too High



Case Verification : Engine oil may have been recently changed. The customer may state the "Oil Change Required" message comes on too soon I at too short of an interval. Engine oil analysis may show above 5% fuel in oil dilution.

Recommendation



* Be Aware *



The closed-crankcase ventilation system on the 6. 7l Cummins Turbo Diesel engine retains oil much longer than on previous 5. 9L engines. Remove the engine oil fill cap while draining the engine oil to allow the CCV filter to drain. If the engine is only allowed to drain for a short time, then refilled with engine oil, the crankcase may actually be overfilled. The "Oil Change Required" message displayed on the EVIC is sent over the vehicle BUS system from the ECM. The message is requested when the ECM calculates there is excessive (above 5%) fuel in the engine oil dilution. This calculation is derived from engine idle time and the amount of time the engine is performing an 'active' exhaust regeneration. During these operating conditions, a small amount of fuel will get into the engine oil. This is normal operation of the engine.



Comments:



Reducing excessive engine idle time (above 20% engine idle time is generally considered excessive). Idle time is counted when there is zero vehicle speed and the throttle position is at rest (zero to 5 percent).



Engine idle time is determined by dividing the total engine idle time (displayed in hours) into the total time (displayed in hours). This information can be found in trip information.



Also note the total desired I completed I incomplete exhaust regenerations.



If possible, also note the ignition key cycles or engine warm-up cycles. Active exhaust regenerations must complete. If a regeneration (or 'De-Soot') process does not complete during an operation cycle, during the next operating cycle the entire regeneration process will start from the beginning.



Frequent short-trip operation of the engine will result in many incomplete regeneration processes (and relatively high fuel dilution in the engine oil).



Modification Date 01/15/08 8:28 AM



Review



Case Created Bv: Approved T1118KR





What is the current "Letter Designation" ECM Flash applicable for the 6. 7 ?

 

[HBarlow]

Oh, I misunderstood. Thought you were saying the service manager handed you a specific diagnosis off another truck.

Sounds like your dealer hasn't actually diagnosed anything on your particular truck and doesn't know what is causing fuel in the crankcase but is simply handing out the standard excuse for issues with ISB6. 7 pickups.

That report is generic. Did he actually perform a cylinder performance engine diagnostic test? If he didn't run a cylinder performance test or other tests they may have available for diagnosing problems he hasn't done much for you. He doesn't know or didn't tell you what your percentage of idle time is, if each injector is normal, how many times the regen has occurred or what number of times it has been interruped or incomplete. The dealer service department has the capability to run all sorts of diagnostic tests that I am not even familiar with to determine how the truck is used and how the engine is performing.

It's a little like going to your physician with a high fever, serious pain in your abdomen, and a feeling of weakness and dizzyness and he tells you it's a common problem, take two aspirins, drink lots of fluids, and go to bed. It could be a ruptured appendix.

 

[Austin Diesel]

Dodge Tech Net Bulletin





Case Number K44264524

Vehicle Issue Engine oil level is high or may show overfull.



Year 2007,2008



Model DH -Ram Pickup HD, D1 -Ram Pickup 3500, DC -Ram 3500 Cab Chassis, DM -RAM 4500 / 5500 CAB CHASSIS



Engine 6. 7L CUMMINS TURBO DIESEL



Catagory Customer Concern (No DTCs)



System or Component : Engine Oil



Symptom : Oil Level Too High



Case Verification : Engine oil may have been recently changed. The customer may state the "Oil Change Required" message comes on too soon I at too short of an interval. Engine oil analysis may show above 5% fuel in oil dilution.

Recommendation



* Be Aware *



The closed-crankcase ventilation system on the 6. 7l Cummins Turbo Diesel engine retains oil much longer than on previous 5. 9L engines. Remove the engine oil fill cap while draining the engine oil to allow the CCV filter to drain. If the engine is only allowed to drain for a short time, then refilled with engine oil, the crankcase may actually be overfilled. The "Oil Change Required" message displayed on the EVIC is sent over the vehicle BUS system from the ECM. The message is requested when the ECM calculates there is excessive (above 5%) fuel in the engine oil dilution. This calculation is derived from engine idle time and the amount of time the engine is performing an 'active' exhaust regeneration. During these operating conditions, a small amount of fuel will get into the engine oil. This is normal operation of the engine.



Comments:



Reducing excessive engine idle time (above 20% engine idle time is generally considered excessive). Idle time is counted when there is zero vehicle speed and the throttle position is at rest (zero to 5 percent).



Engine idle time is determined by dividing the total engine idle time (displayed in hours) into the total time (displayed in hours). This information can be found in trip information.



Also note the total desired I completed I incomplete exhaust regenerations.



If possible, also note the ignition key cycles or engine warm-up cycles. Active exhaust regenerations must complete. If a regeneration (or 'De-Soot') process does not complete during an operation cycle, during the next operating cycle the entire regeneration process will start from the beginning.



Frequent short-trip operation of the engine will result in many incomplete regeneration processes (and relatively high fuel dilution in the engine oil).



Modification Date 01/15/08 8:28 AM



Review



Case Created Bv: Approved T1118KR





What is the current "Letter Designation" ECM Flash applicable for the 6. 7 ?

 

[HBarlow]

You mentioned the Sterling twice in earlier posts. The Sterling truck is/was nothing more than a Dodge Ram cab and chassis with a different grille and badges. The C&C models meet 2007 not 2010 treehugger requirements and use fewer complex components and different software programming and are detuned to 305hp and 610 tq so may produce less soot.

There are about six or eight cab and chassis trucks among TDR members who post frequently. EB, an oilfield hotshooter has something like 210,000 miles on his with only one relevant problem I remember him reporting. His truck has been essentially trouble free. Mine has been troublefee for over 48,000 miles. RVTRKN has 30 or 40k on his and has reported no emissions problems except a recent driveability he has encountered after a reflash. FFeiler and a couple of others have 5500s with some miles and have reported no problems.

Beyond the obvious differences in hardware and software on the C&C trucks the C&C trucks probably work more and are driven around town less.

I wish I knew something to suggest to resolve your problems. I would encourage you to at least talk to TDR member/Dodge-Cummins tech Mike Mullenax. He works in a small town dealership and may be able and willing to do better testing and diagnosis. He can't redesign the system any more than your current dealer but may be able and willing to spend more time figuring out why yours has a problem.

 

[Austin Diesel]

Harvey will take this to the next level next week and print your info off to validate what the heck i am requesting.



Thanks for the info.



I just wanted a new truck to drive now i have to be a technician, I thought that was what my warranty covered. Several more days in the shop now. And driving it into town to the store is bad or running errands, have the 09 or 10 models changed any thing in the exhaust set up?



And i have put a friend request to Mike so we can talk about all this .



Karl