Fuel Dilution 6.7 Crankcase/Technet Bulletin

[HBarlow]

I think you'll be pleased with what Mike can tell you and can do for you if you take your truck to his dealer's service department in Athens. When things get sticky I'd like to be able to talk to a man who is a Level 4 Cummins trained and certifified technician, has an interest in the Dodge-Cummins product as I do, and is a sincere, honest, straightforward person I can trust.

You shouldn't have to learn to be a technician on your new truck but unfortunately, the new ISB6. 7 is far more complex than previous trucks and much harder for owners or dealer techs to know the cause if something is wrong.

Nobody has stated it on a public forum but since Chrysler went through a period of bankruptcy with the entire company shut down dealers may not be getting paid on warranty work right now and may be having trouble obtaining parts. I'm sure that when Dodge halted production their parts and component suppliers did also. Cummins did shut down. The suppliers probably haven't been paid. I hope all the parts suppliers are able to resume production when Dodge restarts.

We should all remember who is behind the problems. It's not Cummins the engine maker or Dodge who makes the platform. It's the empty suit blow-dried clowns in Congress who pass the laws and empower their flunky bureaucrats in the EPA and other tree-hugger federal and state agencies.

Keep us posted how this goes. All owners and potential owners of new ISB6. 7 trucks have an interest in the outcome. If yours can't be diagnosed and repaired correctly, the product line is in jeopardy.

 

[Austin Diesel]

I think you'll be pleased with what Mike can tell you and can do for you if you take your truck to his dealer's service department in Athens. When things get sticky I'd like to be able to talk to a man who is a Level 4 Cummins trained and certifified technician, has an interest in the Dodge-Cummins product as I do, and is a sincere, honest, straightforward person I can trust.



You shouldn't have to learn to be a technician on your new truck but unfortunately, the new ISB6. 7 is far more complex than previous trucks and much harder for owners or dealer techs to know the cause if something is wrong.



Nobody has stated it on a public forum but since Chrysler went through a period of bankruptcy with the entire company shut down dealers may not be getting paid on warranty work right now and may be having trouble obtaining parts. I'm sure that when Dodge halted production their parts and component suppliers did also. Cummins did shut down. The suppliers probably haven't been paid. I hope all the parts suppliers are able to resume production when Dodge restarts.



We should all remember who is behind the problems. It's not Cummins the engine maker or Dodge who makes the platform. It's the empty suit blow-dried clowns in Congress who pass the laws and empower their flunky bureaucrats in the EPA and other tree-hugger federal and state agencies.



Keep us posted how this goes. All owners and potential owners of new ISB6. 7 trucks have an interest in the outcome. If yours can't be diagnosed and repaired correctly, the product line is in jeopardy.

Yes that is very well said ,With the price tags involved on these vehicles having to restrict usage and driving habits in order to retain emissions integrity is not my idea of a sound design.





I wonder if the mercedes bluetec diesels with urea injection have these issues also?



I have ECM Flash AR dated 2/09/09 on this engine when they put the new turbo in it and the exhaust wrap.

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ..... I wonder if the mercedes bluetec diesels with urea injection have these issues also?... ... ... quote]

I don't know anything about the MB diesels other than have seen/read the advertising gimmick name, "blutec. " I don't know if "blutec" actually refers to urea injection or something similar to our Dodges.

The "bluetec" label appeared on Dodge paperwork, at least for awhile, but as far as I know I don't think Dodge ever used the actual technology. I think it appeared on my invoice and MSRP on the line for the upcharge for emissions technology. When I ordered my truck I told my salesman and sales manager I wanted to delete that line on the order. They chuckled. The answer was no, of course.

I think it is critical to know the information contained in the ECM of your truck and others with fuel contamination in the crankcase, turbo or dpf soot issues, or codes being set. If your operation schedule involves too much slow speed and/or short trip driving or idle time you should be able to cure or prevent it with frequent longer and faster drive periods.

Is it possible for you to take a different route to work in order to drive faster and farther each day to provide a period of highway speed operation in your daily commute?

 

[domehead]

... ... ..... I wonder if the mercedes bluetec diesels with urea injection have these issues also?... ... ... quote]



I don't know anything about the MB diesels other than have seen/read the advertising gimmick name, "blutec. " I don't know if "blutec" actually refers to urea injection or something similar to our Dodges.



The "bluetec" label appeared on Dodge paperwork, at least for awhile, but as far as I know I don't think Dodge ever used the actual technology. I think it appeared on my invoice and MSRP on the line for the upcharge for emissions technology. When I ordered my truck I told my salesman and sales manager I wanted to delete that line on the order. They chuckled. The answer was no, of course.



I think it is critical to know the information contained in the ECM of your truck and others with fuel contamination in the crankcase, turbo or dpf soot issues, or codes being set. If your operation schedule involves too much slow speed and/or short trip driving or idle time you should be able to cure or prevent it with frequent longer and faster drive periods.



Is it possible for you to take a different route to work in order to drive faster and farther each day to provide a period of highway speed operation in your daily commute?

Harvey,



The MB 2009 units with the blue tec badge are urea injection. For example on the ML 320 the spare tire was removed so the container for the urea fluid could be stored there. The 2008 ML CDI are not Blue Tec. One other foot note when the message comes on for the MB 2009 to have your urea container refilled you have about nine more starts before it shuts down and will not let you drive it.



Don

 

[PaulCormier]

I have a dashhawk and have been watching the number of regens and associated sensors in the new trucks. The dashhawk displays 3 EGTs (1 before the NoX catalyst, 1 between the NoX catalyst and DPF, and one after the DPF), time since last regen, DPF delta pressure, soot load, # of complete regens, # of attempted regens, etc.



A couple of things that I have figured out: there are 2 regen modes, deNoX and deSoot. A deSoot always precedes a deNoX. My truck does not perform a deNoX in the winter - it will not enter that mode when the outside temperature is below ~40F. The deSoot does last longer during the winter though (about twice as long as in the summer). The deNoX appears to work much better hauling a load or when the outside temp is relatively high. The soot load decreases while in deNoX but not when in deSoot (go figure!)



During a deSoot, exhaust temps are approximately 1000-1200, 1100-1150, 1080-1112 (corresponds to the 3 EGTs from front to back). During a deNoX, exhaust temps are approximately 1200-1300, 1200, 1100-1150 (again 3 EGTs from front to back). Fuel economy also seems to take a nose dive when in deNoX.



I had my truck at the dealer at the end of last summer because I removed over 13 quarts of oil from the crank (I performed the previous oil change and only put in 11. 5!) The dealer performed a bunch of tests on the truck, changed the oil, had me drive around for about 500 miles, and then return. The oil level didn't seem to change over the winter. Now that we're back to summer driving, the truck has been entering the deNoX more often... so I'm interested to see how much oil I'll be removing at my next oil change. My truck was recently flashed to the AS version so that might have an effect also. Given that your in Austin, I would expect that you enter deNoX fairly regularly...



I am disappointed with respect to the frequency of regens. In the winter, I can go about 14,000 secs between regens assuming that the previous regen completed successfully (not too bad). In the summers, regens occur approximately every 9,000 sec again assuming the previous regen completed successfully (a bit disappointing). EGTs are in the 500-700 range when not towing combined city/highway driving. When towing (EGTs 850-950 at all 3 sensors) active regens still occur around 10,000 secs (very disappointed because everything I had read previously seemed to suggest that active regens wouldn't be needed under load).



The most irritating part of all this is not being able to control the regens. A good number of times, the ECM puts the truck into regen about 5 mins before I'll be shutting her down after having driven over an hour on the highway! That's not enough time to get the exhaust temps high enough to do a proper job at burning away the soot. So instead of being able to run 10,000 sec or so before the next regen, she'll want to do another regen in 3,000 secs (that's not even an hour!) It is very easy to get into this cycle... so lately I've been trying to keep her running as long as possible when in regen (I'll even do detours getting home to complete a regen). Hmmm... burn more fuel to keep the truck running good...

 

[hwebster]

I got fed up with the oil creeping and pulled the DPF/CAT and added the BADP box. Just switched that out for the smarty S67. . The EGR Delete is next.

Hassled the Cummins guys at the summer farm show, they're stating that the 2010 Cummins will be "tamper proof" and locked down... Doesn't give me any warm fuzzies!

 

[HBarlow]

I have a dashhawk and have been watching the number of regens and associated sensors in the new trucks. The dashhawk displays 3 EGTs (1 before the NoX catalyst, 1 between the NoX catalyst and DPF, and one after the DPF), time since last regen, DPF delta pressure, soot load, # of complete regens, # of attempted regens, etc.

A couple of things that I have figured out: there are 2 regen modes, deNoX and deSoot. A deSoot always precedes a deNoX. My truck does not perform a deNoX in the winter - it will not enter that mode when the outside temperature is below ~40F. The deSoot does last longer during the winter though (about twice as long as in the summer). The deNoX appears to work much better hauling a load or when the outside temp is relatively high. The soot load decreases while in deNoX but not when in deSoot (go figure!)

During a deSoot, exhaust temps are approximately 1000-1200, 1100-1150, 1080-1112 (corresponds to the 3 EGTs from front to back). During a deNoX, exhaust temps are approximately 1200-1300, 1200, 1100-1150 (again 3 EGTs from front to back). Fuel economy also seems to take a nose dive when in deNoX.

I had my truck at the dealer at the end of last summer because I removed over 13 quarts of oil from the crank (I performed the previous oil change and only put in 11. 5!) The dealer performed a bunch of tests on the truck, changed the oil, had me drive around for about 500 miles, and then return. The oil level didn't seem to change over the winter. Now that we're back to summer driving, the truck has been entering the deNoX more often... so I'm interested to see how much oil I'll be removing at my next oil change. My truck was recently flashed to the AS version so that might have an effect also. Given that your in Austin, I would expect that you enter deNoX fairly regularly...

I am disappointed with respect to the frequency of regens. In the winter, I can go about 14,000 secs between regens assuming that the previous regen completed successfully (not too bad). In the summers, regens occur approximately every 9,000 sec again assuming the previous regen completed successfully (a bit disappointing). EGTs are in the 500-700 range when not towing combined city/highway driving. When towing (EGTs 850-950 at all 3 sensors) active regens still occur around 10,000 secs (very disappointed because everything I had read previously seemed to suggest that active regens wouldn't be needed under load).

The most irritating part of all this is not being able to control the regens. A good number of times, the ECM puts the truck into regen about 5 mins before I'll be shutting her down after having driven over an hour on the highway! That's not enough time to get the exhaust temps high enough to do a proper job at burning away the soot. So instead of being able to run 10,000 sec or so before the next regen, she'll want to do another regen in 3,000 secs (that's not even an hour!) It is very easy to get into this cycle... so lately I've been trying to keep her running as long as possible when in regen (I'll even do detours getting home to complete a regen). Hmmm... burn more fuel to keep the truck running good...

Paul,

That's excellent information. It's a damned shame that knowing all of that detail about regen and having an electronic box that monitors and reports it, the owner still can't do a thing about it.

Like you, it irritates me to drive for hours then experience a regan just when I want to shutdown. Computers perform many useful even critical functions but there are times I figure I am a better judge of when something needs to be done.

I'd feel better about all the heavy-handed emission control equipment on our trucks if it would show a dash or overhead display indicating percentage of soot accumulation or estimated time to regen mode and would also allow the driver to initiate a regen early based on anticipated driving situations. For example, the guy who travels the same 30 mile route to work five days a week. He might know that once/week his truck would enter regen mode. He could initiate it every Friday morning as soon as he got on the highway and his engine got up to operating temp.

Based on your Dashhawk and the careful monitoring of all the parameters you appear to be doing, what is your opinion of the possible effect of removing the muffler on either deNox or desoot modes of regeneration?

Your post makes me wonder whether the C&C engines perform a deNoX regen. I think one of the differences in the C&C emissions equipment is the C&C trucks do not have the NoX hardware. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Could it be that the 2007 certified C&C trucks don't experience the crankcase filling and the soot buildup issues because they don't address NoX emissions?

HWebster,

I've thought some about pulling my emissions equipment after the warranty expires. The area where I live doesn't test and probably never will. But I like to hook up my fifth wheel trailer and travel cross country. Some of our states do test and their testing effort is increasing. I'd hate to have a truck I couldn't use to travel 49 states and all of Canada.

 

[hwebster]

Harvey,

Understand - I REALLY would have rather had the 5. 9 and avoid all the BS. The 93 ran like a top, was reasonably trouble free and didn't suck fuel @10mpg ever few hours. Of course the bad news is that it will become more difficult to "adjust" your trucks capabilities in the future, based on what I head from the Cummins sales guys last week.

I put a smarty on and notice less smoke w/o the DPF and Cat... Egr still goes next, which will probably add some smoke...

But my oil is staying where is should now... no creeping up...

 

[HBarlow]

Harrison,

I read the DPF/EGR delete posts with interest. With the Smarty box to control smoke like you're doing the chance of being grabbed by an emissions cop would be reduced. If the parts and the companies that build them improve over time I might be in the market when my DPF fills up and must be replaced at some point as it inevitably will. The cost of the DPF makes the delete kits and Smarty box look good.

I have a friend who is a commercial hauler w/desmogged ISB6. 7 truck. He had to turn down a good-paying load from SoCal all the way up the west coast to just short of the Canadian border because he was scared of the West Coast treehugger cops who now run emissions check points. He was told that if he was caught w/o emissions crap his truck would be impounded and trucked to a dealer for complete replacement of the emissions junk @ his expense plus the fines, impound fees, and towing charges. The total bill would probably run $5,000 to $10,000. That's scary!

 

[hwebster]

Harvey - Too True...

Sounds like a Green Police State. I've kept all my junk if needed to go back to stock, but I don't see the "Green" in the current technology, and certainly not with the 6. 7L in the Ram. Frankly Dodge is, if not outright lying, certainly not acknowledging and addressing what I believe are serious flaws. Diesel in the crankcase?? Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. I know that Cummins and Dodge have the EPA sniffing up their skirts, but IMHO we aren't saving anything with this technology, just moving the impact elsewhere - more diesel to clean the filters and less MPG. .

Don't get me wrong, I am all for green technology, but not knee jerk technology that doesn't work, nor do I believe Big Brother has the where with all to address the issue now. While I like the truck, even with the junk onboard, I couldn't stand the fuel economy or the never ending regens...

Off course I don't live in California, where there are more people in Sacremento than all of Saskatchewan!

Save travels!

 

[PaulCormier]

Harvey,



I can only guess what removing a muffler would do to EGTs. What I have tried is to manually select the top transmission gear during a regen to try to determine how engine RPMs affect the regen process.



If I keep engine RPMs above 1800, the post downstream EGT sensors tend to mirror the first EGT quickly i. e. , a change in the pre-NoX EGT will be seen shortly by the post-DPF EGT. I assume this is because a lot of air is being forced through the exhaust system.



When engine RPMs are below 1400, the post DPF EGT sensor doesn't seem to change very quickly in either direction up or down regardless of the changes in the pre-NoX EGT. In this case, I assume this is because less air is being forced through the exhaust system.



If you remove back pressure from the system at lower RPMs, I don't know if the heat in the DPF will be expelled faster causing the regen to be less effective? On the other hand, if engine RPMs are higher (e. g. , lets say in the 2000 range), I'm not sure if not having the back pressure will actually make a difference (given that all 3 EGTs seem to mirror each other in my case)?



I guess all this to say I don't have a clue what it would do...

 

[Austin Diesel]

This is a great thread to have started , I believe that with all this knowledge most of the readers or drivers posting this info, we could build a successful space shuttle and launch it .

You know i bought this truck to drive and be somewhat trouble free and i agree that this exhaust design while not patterned on the exact "Mercedes" Adblue Exhaust Urea Injection maybe due to royalty and costing issues ?



This issue is definently becoming widespread and i have a big payment coupon book to deplete or trade this off before the warranty expires and i release it.



But I am wondering if the other diesel apps p stroke and dmax that use this similar exhaust setup have been validating the same crankcase issues if so it is definently an engineering flaw.



now i have to go get a new ECM flash now to, from AR to AS.

Glad i got them to put the tag on the hood as it has had 11 flashes since new to keep track.



Austin Diesel

 

[Bob4x4]

Driving with the star scan in a forced regen you can watch how changes in driving affect the actual regen time countdown,it is somewhat accurate and interesting to play with if you ever get the chance.

 

[firemansdiesel]

But I am wondering if the other diesel apps p stroke and dmax that use this similar exhaust setup have been validating the same crankcase issues if so it is definently an engineering flaw.

Ford's 6. 4 has the same issues w/ fuel in the crankcase (I owned one). Ford also says it's acceptable to a certain %%. As far as the Chevy's/Duramax LLM's. I really have not read of any real problems being mentioned.

 

[HBarlow]

Driving with the star scan in a forced regen you can watch how changes in driving affect the actual regen time countdown,it is somewhat accurate and interesting to play with if you ever get the chance.

If the Star Scan tool can force a regeneration shouldn't that mean that one of the aftermarket magic black box builders could also figure out how to enable the regen whenever the driver wanted?

I don't want any magic black boxes altering my fueling, fuel timing, or rail pressure but it would be nice to be able to closely monitor the regen process and force a regen when on the highway if I knew regen time was approaching.

Do you have an opinion on this?

 

[Austin Diesel]

Now it would seem that controlling uneeded or ill timed regens would reduce crankcase fueling but then there is the EGR system pushing carbon into turbo and washing that smog system down.

And soot build up, just wish i could strip it all off and simplify engine ops. but i cant afford to void warranty now .



Going to flash ECM to AS tomorrow .



Austin Diesel

 

[MullenaxM]

If the Star Scan tool can force a regeneration shouldn't that mean that one of the aftermarket magic black box builders could also figure out how to enable the regen whenever the driver wanted?



I don't want any magic black boxes altering my fueling, fuel timing, or rail pressure but it would be nice to be able to closely monitor the regen process and force a regen when on the highway if I knew regen time was approaching.



Do you have an opinion on this?

Some of the aftermarket programers are able to monitor the regeneration process, Also they are able to "Force" a regeneration



Mike

 

[MullenaxM]

I would hold on before I would comit to any deletes yet



More to come,soon.....



Mike

 

[PaulCormier]

Personally, I would like to:



- be able to force a regen (e. g. , knowing that a regen will be required shortly and having the right conditions for a regen - like a good highway trip)

- be able to delay a regen (e. g. , going to be shutting down the vehicle in 5 mins)



Obviously, it would be nice to have a display that indicates how close to requiring a regen one would be...



I believe that I read somewhere that some cummins applications had such manual controls.

 

[JohnBower]

How are you monitoring the pre-nox and post-dpf egt's?