Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Fuel pressure/GRRR/help/advise/all welcome!

[LLewandowski]

OK guys heres my story . Bought truck in FEB , installed my gauges a couple weeks ago(fuel pres/boost/pyro) (isspro). Tapped fuel hose off schrader valve into Acolumn . FP reads 7 idel , I can drop it to 0 and past WOT . So I made my apointment at my local doge dealer today , just got back , kinda mad .



Basically I tried explaining the problem to the 'service rep' . Of course I'm sure these guys have seen about 3 diesels in thier lifetime (not common here) and he 's looking at me as if he has no clue . After the mechanic has done his 'work' he comes out and tells me>





He says you not 'Supposed to put a pressure guage on the fuel line' . This is excatly what my reciept says :



"Inspected vechicle for customer concern with the after market fuel guage operation and puel pressure . Customer concern is not a covered component due to aftermarket guage installation . In order to preform the test the customer would be responsible for the diagnostic fee . At this time no other repairs are necessary to vechicle fuel system components are operating as designed at this time . "





I asked him then if they checked the lift pump AT ALL , he said his mechanic wouldn't touch my system because he could "get sprayed with 2500PSI diesel fuel . " (I'm assuming becuase of my bad bad bad guage) I mean come on , whoever is looking at this has no idea even the low side or high side of the system!!! Which I explained to the 'service rep' . So basically they pulled my truck in , said "im not touching that" , pulled iot out and CHARGED ME 40$ . (I am under warranty , but I guess if you take your truck in , and 'nothing is wrong ' and no parts were changed , you pay diagnostic fee . . . which is understandable... ... . IF THEY CHECK WHAT YOU BROUGHT IT IN FOR FFS!!!)



He also said "how are we really going to check the lift pump" . I said "well I dont work as a mechanic for a dealership , thats not my concern"

But he kept babbling on with salesman speech trying to divert the subject and such .



My main concern here is my truck , but I feel like I'm being played . I can't let this go . I have issues and if I let someone walk on me it will bug me for a long while and I will lose sleep . I will day dream about it at work , and it will make me unhappy . Somebody hug me quick .



I handled myself very professionaly , and they 'servise rep' told me I could drop it off and he would have someone look at it and not charge me 80$ more (if the pump IS good , I would have to pay it as a diagnostic fee , although I thought thats what I JUST PAID ). I said I will call him for a later appointment .



I need some answers guys heres my questions :



1) Is there any paperwork/data/specs/ whatever to prove what fuel pressure is supposed to be , what the risk is , what defines a 'bad lift pump' , and most importantly , anything from dodge/chrysler , as he wasnt to worried about what cummins has to say... . just crysler .



2) Do these lift pumps go bad slowly , all at once , what? I know I'm in a bad zone here..... if my lift pump is bad , why is it pumping 7psi at idel?? And what if they tell me that its pumping so its good(even though it dosnt meet 'specs')?



3) If a lift pump dies , how long and or what would it take to kill the IP? Alot of pulling on WOT cant be good , lol . I'm sure this isn't a science , what really , whats it take(no I'm not suggesting killing it on purpose) . . . . . but what if u did?



4) Basically this reciept says i voided the warranty on the lift pump by adding a pressure guage . I've read that other people have had problems with dealerships over this . Whats my next step... ... . who do I talk to? , should I goto a differant dealer and see what they say?



Anybody with any info at all, please reply..... and THANKS .

 

[Mundgyver]

The dealer is screwing around. Buy yourself the factory service manual and that way you can cite the factory specs with absolute athority. Find another dealer that will work with you and then when you get it fixed, let the original dealer know he just lost your business and others.



A guage is not a performance mod It is a monitoring function. The dealer has to prove a failure by the addition of the guage and there is no way he can. A guage does not add performance cabability, just monitoring which is good common sense. I would suggest you familirize yourself with the Magnson Act and then once you understand it, use against the dealer. I would suggest you call DC direct and complain loud and clear.



Don't play his game. Sounds like the LP is on the bottom end of it's life. Get a new one. If the LP quits, it can take out the VP with it if your not vigilent.

 

[DNewell]

Yikes!!! That's all I can say. My understanding of the LP is that it basically craps out all at once. I'm not 100% sure, but this is my understanding. When I put my FP gauge on, I had 0 PSI. On the era like ours, the IP will basically suck enough fuel to keep it running well. I never had a lick of trouble with mine. However, you will want to replace the LP if it is reading 0. Really, the cost of a new pump is so minimal, I wouldn't even bother having the dealership look at it again. They are not too hard to replace yourself, if you have a basic concept of mechanical ability(righty-tighty, lefty-loosey). On the FP gauge, did you install an isolator so that diesel is not running into the cab? If so, I would recheck the system to ensure that all the air bubbles are out of the anti-freeze. It took me a bit to get mine done, but it worked out perfectly. I now run about 11. 5-12 PSI at idle, and as low as 8 at WOT.

I got my LP at NAPA for about $170. I believe it's a Carter, but i can't remember 100% for sure. Also, while you're doing this system, do the fuel filter as well.

 

[Jeff Knight]

"how are we really going to check the lift pump? I would find another dealer. They check the volume and not the pressure. Jeff

 

[LLewandowski]

Thanks for the replys . What is the Magnson Act , i just did a quick search and dint come up ? I can't believe any mechanic would tell you installing a guage to motitor the vechicle would be a bad thing!



And no , no isolator . direct fuel line into the cab . I plan on major changes to the truck , this is temporay , but I did it myself and I know I wont have a problem , basically a tube in tube through tight spots .



He asked me if I would like to talk to the mechanic , I said sure... . so a few mins he comes out and says "O , he left" . Sure buddy... ... fact is they don't know what thier doing with a diesel , and I know it .





If I do end up taking this in the rear , what kind of pump should I get ?





ALSO , where can I find the maintence book , and are you sure it gives specs on FP?

 

[Thomas]

... Anybody with any info at all, please reply...

Probably the only information you really need is TSB 14-002-03 (from the world-famous Dave Fritz site): http://dodgeram. info/tsb/2003/14-002-03.htm

 

[Thomas]

... ALSO , where can I find the maintence book , and are you sure it gives specs on FP?

Any pressure specifications in Factory Service Manuals for model years 1998-2002 have been superceded by TSB 14-002-03.

 

[Thomas]

The secret to having your concern about a failing transfer pump diagnosed by the dealer without a fee is to not say anything about the transfer pump or pressures or the like. One complaint that might work is to complain about the water separator/fuel filter cannister not filling when you bump the starter following a water separator/fuel filter change - a problem associated with a failing/failed transfer pump.


I think it's always good to arrive at a dealership with lots of knowledge about a problem and act like you don't - then see what path the service writer wants to take you down.

 

[Nyoest]

Unhook your gauge and install an airline with a regulator to the gauge. Start low and turn the regulator up until you have 15 psi. If your gauge reads a steady 15 psi then your pump is bad. This is how I confirm my steup every time. It sounds like you have enough knowledge, buy a campaign lift pump (savingmucho $) and put it on yourself.

 

[jgillott]

Where are you located, or did I miss that in your post?

 

[LLewandowski]

Thank you everybody for your posts . Would this TSB 14-002-03 be a crysler 'BULLETIN' by any chance ?What does TSB stand for? In any case thanks , this is huge to present my case .

Where are you located, or did I miss that in your post?

For the record , im south of Buffalo NY . This is who i spoke too =



chris stephens

service advisor

West Herr Dodge



3551 Southwestern boulevard

Orchard Park , NY 14127

716-667-1700

716 667-1762 Fax







Thanks

 

[JAderhold]

Geno's has all the service manuals in paper and on cd, will run around 100 bucks for the cd or the cummins manual on cd if i remember right.

geno's web site is

http://www.genosgarage.com/

hopefully this will help with the manual questions



Eddie

 

[Thomas]

TSB - Technical Service Bulletin
They are listed on this site here: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/membersonly/tsb/tsb.phtml

I prefer the list on the world-famous Dave Fritz site.

I sent the text from the model year 2002 Factory Service Manual to you in a private message. That text is obsolete as far as your dealer is concerned - the TSB is what they'll use.

Good luck.

 

[Mundgyver]

It is called the Magson Moss Act. Everyone should become very familiar with it. It takes the wind and hot air right out of the dealers when you hit them with when they are being BUTT HEADS



Here is a link to it.



http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

 

[LLewandowski]

Well fellas , thx for everyones help . I got my truck back from the dealer today , again . They tried charging me again , this time I got a little loud . . . so I got out of paying anything . Funny how that works .





Basically , I gave them the TSB and they say they did it . Suposably it pumped 48 ounces , which is 3 ounces higher than spec on the TSB . I honestly don't know where to go from here . Would they actually lie about preforming the work? I do have a little mis-trust from the previous experience .



If they really did , and it has the flow , I guess that would mean my guage is bad? I don't have a regulator , but do have an air-compressor , so I guess the next step is to test it and see if it reads correct ? Only thing is , then I have to re-bleed the guage , which is now in the A-pillar , which is rivited to the factory pillar all tight and snug , along with pyro and boost , and a ton of wires , and I really don't want to rip that apart .



Any way to bleed it other than cracking the nut on the guage with fuel flowing?



Well , after that if worse comes to worse I gota throw a new pump on myself . What should I get ? I want the cheapest , yet most reliable .



Reason being (I din't mebtion it before because I din't want it to effect the thread) is I'm converting my truck to run on veggy oil and I will void any warrantys . I will basically only be using the stock system for start-ups (till engine is upto temp) and shutdowns . I will have a whole seperate fuel system for the veggy , which will most likly be the FASS pump/filter deal . So I just want somthing within range for the petro fuel , as the FASS id 600$ .





What my best bet for fuel pump ? I really don't want to have to drop the tank .





THANKS everyone .

 

[BILLVO]

The dealer can not check flow with out adding a load. Any type of pump wether hydraulic fuel water ect can pump a certain amount and still meet spec even if it is shot the only way to check flow correctly is to put an inline flowmeter and measure it under load or put a load on it as many flowmeters do. In short a shot pump can still put out good volume but can not do it under load,it will not build pressure.

 

[Fishin Guide]

Sounds like you got some varied and contradictory advice.



Here's the deal on pressures. Dodge got tired of replacing pumps that could not hold the 8 PSI rule. They changed it to flow at zero pressure. Some test. That's like turning off the garden hose and watching the water run out of it.



you want to geeta lift pump fixed? Go in and tell that you are having issues startingg it, it's low on power, slow to accerate and has stalled twice in traffic leaving you exposed to danger. This is not an inconvience, this is a matter of safety. Of you and your family. Of course this condition does not happen all the time, but... .

That usually gets the trick done on the pump.



Sounds like you are about to embark on the lift pump fix trek. We all seem to go through it. We all have our own ideas of what is best. My opinion is to look at the RASP ot the new MitUSA. Both are competetively priced to the FASS with filter system and have no electric pump to fail. How's that sound?



I have a cam and a 12V lift pump. It's not forever, but I have not replaced a pump in a year. A personal best!!

Most likely your gauge is fine. In fact, I will almost bet on it. remember, the dealer is measuring flow of an open hose into a cup. How much pressure does that take?



Pick an aftermarket lift pumnp fix. There are too many to talk about. But the popular ones make use of a stock or aftermarket electric pump in the stock, the rear frame rail and also a pusher setup. You have the mechanical pumps. RASP, MitUSA and 12V pumps.



Do lots of research, picj one and know the quirks of that system. Nothing is perfect and nothing lasts forever. You have to balance reliabilty, performance, replacement parts and cost yourself. FWIW, I would not replace an electric pump with another. But, that's just me.



Dave

 

[darkhorse]

Reason being (I din't mebtion it before because I din't want it to effect the thread) is I'm converting my truck to run on veggy oil



THANKS everyone . [/QUOTE]



Just a word of caution on the veggie oil. The VP44 injection pump is temperature sensitive in the electronics area. Straight veggie oil needs to be heated in cool weather to flow properly. Heated fuel leads to electronic failures in the VP44. The guyes at Greasel.com ran a 2001 test truck & concluded the VP44 is not a candidate for SVO. Convert the SVO to biodiesel by removing the glycerine & your good to go.

 

[JTCash]

Did I understand you correctly?... You have a fuel line running to the back of the gauge in the A-pillar?

 

[Fishin Guide]

Did I understand you correctly?... You have a fuel line running to the back of the gauge in the A-pillar?

I did have.



Dave