Funky Starting after injector install

[DavidC]

I am wondering if that is an error in the diagram or the diagram is for gas engine. I do know that there is an idle validation switch (valve? maybe they mean validation?) in the APPS circuit and I think some of them have two idle validation switches. I believe that the second one could be used for an accessory such as an aftermarket exhaust brake control.

I don't know this for sure. I do know that one function of the idle validation switch is to give all fueling control to the ECM at idle - the APPS has no input at this time.

- John

It's for a diesel. I don't think gas has a ECM anyway, everything there I believe is PCM

 

[BigPapa]

This is the diesel APPS diagram.

This one shows the Injection Pump to ECM connections.

 

[petersonj]

Now we need to figure out how the ECM gets the info from the transmission that it is shifted into gear. Anyone has an idea?

I don't have an answer here, just some thoughts. Why would the ECM need any input from the transmission or anything else to control the the idle since there is a crank position sensor that tells the ECM engine rpm? Wouldn't any load put upon the engine at idle force the engine rpm's to drop causing the ECM to immediately respond by adding more fuel to maintain idle rpm?

What about doing the VP44 injection pump hot wire test (or maybe the test has already been done and I missed it)? The test is done by disconnecting the main wiring harness to the VP44 and providing a 12 volt supply jumper wire and a ground jumper wire to the VP44. The engine should only idle. No input from anything. Turn on the AC, put the transmission into gear - see what happens.

I have heard that with manual transmissions the ECM is programmed with an anti-stall feature. As the clutch is slowly engaged (no throttle, so no APPS input), the engine throttles on its own. Would this feature benefit @Joe Mc 's situation?

I wish I had a solution to Joe's problem but I keep coming back to having an aggressive low stall torque converter and 200+hp injectors would be an invitation to engine idle problems. And I know he said he never had the problem before, but it just seems to me that an ECM designed to operate factory injectors could have trouble trying to control the idle of large bore high horse power injectors just because of the large volume of fuel that would flow with a split second of fuel solenoid operation. It would be kind of like turning a fire hose on and off to fill a cup and then wondering why the floor got wet.

When I installed 275 hp injectors, just a small bump in power, the idle never changed, but when I engage the clutch to get the truck moving, then engine hunts rapidly during engagement. The hunting is minor and cannot be noted on the tachometer, but it is definitely audible. I can only imagine that the symptom would only get worse if injector sizes were increased.

Just some thoughts.

- John

 

[Joe Mc]

John, thanks for your thoughts.
Incase you didn't catch the whole post =
- since 03 truck has had DTT
- in 06 Mach 5 injectors
- 09 new VP.
Last summer/fall sent Mach 5s back to FDI to get freshened up (they had over 140k on them). Truck was running fine until I installed the freshened up sticks. Since then new Mach 5s, new built trans with 200rpm less stall on bottom end, new VP and as of yesterday new crank sensor.
Appreciate other ideas, thanks

 

[BigPapa]

I been thinking. I know it doesn’t address your idle issue, but what if something was causing your TC to go into lockup when you put it in gear? A PCM issue, a problem with the Orange/Black wire causing it to ground, a bad solenoid, an internal transmission harness issue?

 

[DavidC]

I been thinking. I know it doesn’t address your idle issue, but what if something was causing your TC to go into lockup when you put it in gear? A PCM issue, a problem with the Orange/Black wire causing it to ground, a bad solenoid, an internal transmission harness issue?

I read somewhere on the great wide world web that the way the trans is designed it is impossible for that to happen even with faulty components. I had thought that earlier also until finding out how it works that it's impossible to lockup with the sequence it happens with Joe. May have been something allowing flow through the valve body to that port.

 

[DavidC]

Something to check Joe unless you have already verified this. Next time it dies leave everything the way it was when it died. Does the lift pump continue to run past the 30 second time limit like the engine is still running ?. If it times out maybe a power or ground issue to/with the ECM ?

 

[BigPapa]

I read somewhere on the great wide world web that the way the trans is designed it is impossible for that to happen even with faulty components.

Don’t believe everything you read, especially “on the great wide world web”. My TC lockup is 100% manual, not PCM controlled, and I can make it lockup anytime I want, all it takes is grounding a wire. So, how can you say it’s “impossible”?

 

[Joe Mc]

Now now boys let's be nice I do appreciate all replies. Years back to eliminate an intermittent 2nd gear start I was having even after trying replacement of transducer and solenoid didn't work I did get new internal harness and that was problem. Do understand when trans was just rebuilt (before I picked truck up) during rebuild it included all new electronics and wiring. I will check grounds, again, at PCM and ECM though.
David, will fire it up and see if what you mentioned is happening.
Papa, in an effort to see if converter is locking when placed into gear, what wire colors and where do I do what with. Please be specific, I have FSM and the schematics there and as posted here make me crazy trying to understand. Sorry just a barrier in my mind can't figure them out.

 

[BigPapa]

Now now boys let's be nice I do appreciate all replies.

Now, see, this is what's wrong with communicating in this format. I meant ABSOLUTELY no malice in anything I said. I said it in my head just like I was standing in front of him and we were discussing the problem.

what wire colors and where do I do what with. Please be specific, I have FSM and the schematics there and as posted here make me crazy trying to understand. Sorry just a barrier in my mind can't figure them out.

The Orange/Black wire between Pin 11 Connector C2 (White) on the PCM and Pin 7 in the Transmission Connector is the one that, when grounded, locks the TC.

 

[DavidC]

Don’t believe everything you read, especially “on the great wide world web”. My TC lockup is 100% manual, not PCM controlled, and I can make it lockup anytime I want, all it takes is grounding a wire. So, how can you say it’s “impossible”?

There's no question you can energize a solenoid the question was having enough fluid pressure to actually lock the clutch. I would have to try to search backwards to find the explanation but I think it was under a stalling thread on mopar man. Since Joe just had a professional builder just go through his truck and the symptoms are mostly the same with new parts including the TC I would THINK he would have found something related if in the trans. I do not really want to railroad this thread without facts so I will shut up about trans functions now.

 

[BigPapa]

David, as I previously stated, no offense was meant by my reply to you. If you took it otherwise, I apologize. No need to shut up.

I'm just thinking on this stuff, certainly not saying this is his problem. The solenoid is already energized, it just needs to be grounded. That was my point, it's a lot easier for a wire, a part, or a connector to be grounded instead of those things finding 12 volts somewhere. The only way to test what I'm talking about would be to cut that wire or remove the terminal from one of the connectors and see if it still does it, and he may not want to cut the wire..

And, yes, some of these parts have been replaced, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. There's a fellow on CompD right now that just rebuilt a 6.1 Hemi in his SRT8 Jeep and bought a set of NEW stock injectors. One of the new injectors filled up a cylinder, hydrolocking it, and threw a rod through the side of the block.

 

[Joe Mc]

Now, see, this is what's wrong with communicating in this format. I meant ABSOLUTELY no malice in anything I said. I said it in my head just like I was standing in front of him and we were discussing the problem.

I'm sorry, not meaning to offend anyone either. I get it we all think in our heads and translate to the keyboard. Which is why as I was laughing I replied "now, now..." come on let's laugh, it's good for the sole.

Thanks for your reply Papa on which wire, where and the color. Going to print it an maybe get to it tomorrow or later. Thanks mam!

 

[Joe Mc]

Guys and gals, thanks for all your replies and efforts to help. At this point I'm going to stand outside the truck, throw a brick on the go pedal then put her in drive and letter rip tater chip....

Of course just kidding. But I'm thinking of starting a new thread since this one is now 134 long and I can't expect everyone to take the time to read thru 7 pages. If I do I'll link this thread to that one and visa versa. I actually joined "Diesel Truck Resource" the other day and tried to create a thread (what I plan to do here to make it easy) and got a message something like "You message will be reviewed by a moderator and then become visible"??? I'm like what? The interesting part is I did start another new thread as a test and bingo it posted right up. No one on that forum has replied to as my question of how long, when and how will I know if, or if not, my thread is approved. Sad as I was hopeful to have another resource there but if it take days for something to get approved and no approval required for other things I'm not to hopeful.

I'll keep y'all posted if I create another thread here on the stall deal. Might be best? We'll see.

 

[DavidC]

Scott, no offense I just really do not like throwing my hat in the ring for something I admit not knowing about such as transmission operation other than electrical. With the electronic age most controls are switched grounds which defies logic I know.
This is kind of interesting/boring
https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/713-hydraulics-fundamentals-part-iv-converter-clutch-control

 

[Joe Mc]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/99-auto-p-or-n-to-d-or-r-stalls.271003/

Bingo it worked. Now I have 2 to follow and hope we'll all be ed-ju-ma-kated when the "magic" reply hits with the thing that works. I'm really tired and just want to get my truck back. Thanks all. Going to get some food and take an "old man nap" been at it since 630 (trying to create a thread on that other site) and haven't take a break for food need fuel. will check back later on thanks again to all.

 

[Timd32]

Have @TDRAdmin4 archive this for no future replies if you don't want to follow both.

Your call for sure if it's simplier.

 

[Ozymandias]

There's no question you can energize a solenoid the question was having enough fluid pressure to actually lock the clutch. I would have to try to search backwards to find the explanation but I think it was under a stalling thread on mopar man. Since Joe just had a professional builder just go through his truck and the symptoms are mostly the same with new parts including the TC I would THINK he would have found something related if in the trans. I do not really want to railroad this thread without facts so I will shut up about trans functions now.

Yes it stalls the engine, no problem.

 

[Joe Mc]

Great suggestion - request to archive submitted. Thanks Tim.

Have @TDRAdmin4 archive this for no future replies if you don't want to follow both.

Your call for sure if it's simplier.

 

[TDRAdmin4]

Normally we don't archive threads, the archive function is automatic and moves a thread to the archives based on last post date. I have closed it instead.