Furd Owners

[Ncostello]

Ya!!! There ya go!! Go get em!!



Fact is today... Ford is the only people not taking bailout money. And maybe the only ones who can really do whatever it takes for success. And they've definately got their sights set on the HD pickup market... . what working people want.



Chrysler and GM on the other hand will probably be forced to "scale back" such vehicles and focus more on meeting the Green Earth Goals and saving/or creating 30 million jobs.

 

[Ncostello]

On Friday I participated in an online live chat with Ford's SuperDuty nameplate chief engineer, Mr. Chris Brewer. It was an interesting thing to actually "speak" to such a person and ask some pretty specific questions... and get fairly good answers.



He mainly took some serious questions from 6. 0L owners who were disgruntled... and 7. 3L owners who were demanding they bring it back in an emission compliant version. Which is practically impossible since it pollutes about 20 times more than a 6. 0L engine.



Anyhow... they very much appear to be fully aware that the 6. 0L engine and even the 6. 4L engine have seriously hurt them (and not just in terms of lawsuit/warranty dollars) and they've got everything riding on this departure from International. They've supposedly torture/destruction tested this new design and have melted down dozens and dozens of prototypes to bring out every type of problem from head gasket failure, seal failure, turbo meltdown, EGR failure injector life and such. All the old problems.



Their goal is a minimum (dare I say guaranteed) 250K miles without failure of any kind. Which means it should go somewhat further... but 250K is the low standard. To most that would be excellent. To some... they'll push that envelope and then some.



So the stage is set. I'm really interested to see how it works. Wonder what the 6. 7L Powerstroke Engine forums will be like? I wonder if there will be posts like "Dead on Arrival"... or "Pouring White Smoke"... or "Third set of injectors only 10K miles". Or perhaps they'll be pretty boring with no real issues to report.



Otherwise I'd STILL much rather have a Cummins 6. 7L. Anything to stay far away from Diesel Exhaust Fluid. Anything!!

 

[Grizzly]

Ncostello, Don't you think Navstar International and Furd tested the 6. 0 and 6. 4 Powerjokes to last 250K miles on hundreds of phototype engines? Like someone else said on TDR, powerjokes are an okay engine if they are used only for a daily driver, but can't cut the mustard when towing heavy.



I wish Furd luck with their new engine, but I won't hold my breath nor rush out and buy one.

 

[rscurtis]

N. Costello, I think you're going to find as time goes on that the DEF is going to be the best solution for returning fuel economy to where it used to be. The Europeans have embraced it, and technologically, they are thirty years ahead of the US when it comes to Diesel vehicles and energy use.

 

[JUeckert]

Ncostello, Don't you think Navstar International and Furd tested the 6. 0 and 6. 4 Powerjokes to last 250K miles on hundreds of phototype engines? Like someone else said on TDR, powerjokes are an okay engine if they are used only for a daily driver, but can't cut the mustard when towing heavy.



I wish Furd luck with their new engine, but I won't hold my breath nor rush out and buy one.

grizzly, the point i believe costello is trying to make, the engine is fords baby, their engineering, their testing, their fingers on the block with nobody to blame but themselves for failures if there are any. this man has taken time to find info about a product, wether with intent to purchase one, or simply find out what the competetion is up to. as for the 6. 0 and especially 6. 4 engine's, there are plenty of them on the road under heavy service with little or no issues. no doubt the 6. 0 had issues, i stayed away from ford because of what i was hearing and seeing first hand back in 03 and 04. the low output commonrail was enjoying a good trackrecord at the time, so i bought my 05 before the nv5600 transmission's dried up. low and behold less then a year latter i started to see commonrail's in the shop for anything from injector's to lift pump's to dropped valve seats and scored cylinder's. nearly everyone of these were completely stock trucks. goes to show, pay yer money and take your chances.

 

[Ncostello]

Yes... I'm simply looking at what's going on out there. TDR magazine often talks about whats going on in other brands. I follow it too.



The diesel pickup market is the market I choose to embrace. I could follow 2-seat exotic sports cars or Jeep type off road vehicles... but I follow diesel pickups. And when Ford, GM or Chrysler comes out with something big... I'm on top of it. To me... Ford putting Navistar in the history books and building a new engine is among the biggest diesel pickup news in 20 years. Last real big news I can think of was GM building the Duramax with Isuzu. Otherwise... Dodge has always been Cummins and Ford has always been International.



I'm not buying a new Ford. I definately can't justify $50,000 for a new truck. But I can swing maybe $10-15K for a used one. And someday I might just get a used 7. 3L or 6. 0L just to play around with and add to my Cummins and Duramax collection. Its my "hobby" and I'm not a brand loyalist. And this is a big maybe.



I guess I'll have to be open minded about the DEF fluid then. I just don't like the thought of having to purchase yet another additive. I will say this... Ford's people absolutely refused to answer one guys question on the live chat concerning what happens when you run out of DEF. Does it limp, shut down or just keep going with reminders. All they would say was that a full tank of DEF will last 10K miles and you'll get plenty of reminders before you last 1K miles. Sounds to me like it'll go into limp mode.



As far as International testing the 6. 0L for durability... I recall that engine being rushed to market (whether on Fords behalf or not I don't recall). Seems like they were trying to fit it in SuperDutys while Navistar was still bolting it together. I do recall an injector problem early on where engines sitting in warehouses were getting replacement injectors... something I would have imagined would have shown up in extensive design testing. But other than that I don't really know what International did. All I know is Ford is actually stating what they are doing.



I like their thermal shock lab test. A 200F ambient temp swing in a minute or so to ensure the heads dont blow a gasket under full load. The video is neat. They are spelling out their game plan for all to see. I can say this... I'd sure love to go to work everyday and get to be involved in something like this. Destruction testing HAS to be fun!!

 

[JUeckert]

def, ditching the manual transmission,aluminum heads and those butt ugly fenders it appears they will be useing on the dually's, are all issue's for me on the new ford. i can get over the transmission, i think i can the heads [if they work out ok] and maybe the def once i learn more about it. but those fender's i cant do. when i bought my 91 dodge, the bed got jerked off and a flat bed installed. hate them on the megacab, but then again i cant use a short bed anyway, so it doesnt matter. i agree, i think i could work at a job that pays me to destroy stuff. gotta beat the one i have now, i pay for it!

 

[Ncostello]

I think the aluminum heads have proven pretty successful on the Duramax. Its all pretty much dependent on the design and the fact they need to be fairly "beefy". If thats a good term.

 

[JUeckert]

when i made my last truck purchase, i looked over all of them. i constantly ask folks that i meet, what kinda luck they have had out of their trucks, whatever the brand. the problem i had with gm was there wernt that many around at the time to question. the aluminum heads were a concern for me, as well as having the 3. 73 axle ratio as the only option. with the weight's i run, sticking with 4. 10's is a must for daily useage. for the time period the duramax has been out, the heads seem to be of no issue. injectors are the primary problem that sticks out, and really that seems to hold true for all 3 brands. as for ford useing aluminum heads, i stumbled across a bit of info stateing the block design is a more stable/ stronger platform then traditonal cast. nearest i can find, this block design is used quite a bit overseas.

 

[Ncostello]

Nascar blocks are CGI. The CGI block material is actually not new technology as it was supposedly patented in 1949. Its just never been used as much for whatever reasons. Here's a quick search article I found. Gives a little background I suppose. Looks like it might be getting more widespread use the CAFE standards getting tougher to meet. But otherwise I know little about it.



Why Compacted Graphite Iron?



Duramax injector issues were basically a concern on the 1st gen Duramax... the LB7 code. The later LLY (04. 5-05), LBZ (06-07) and current LMM (08 up) engines used a different design and operation voltage. Some blame the LB7 injector failures on weak bodies and ball/seat erosion. While others blame the high 96V DC operating voltage as being too difficult to manage with spikes and surges causing pressure problems. The LLY's went to 24V and the LBZ and later use 12V DC control. Plus they redesigned the heads in 05 to make them removable without taking valve covers off etc.



Bosch revealed a "new" design for the LB7 injectors in 08. But there isn't much talk about them and they are expensive to do all 8. Mainly everyone uses reman Bosch old style. Which are OK... but they can fail all the same as originals.

 

[CBlack]

Just thought about this...

Where I live a lot of Furd owners drive around with CAT license plates on the front holder.

Why do you think this is? REAL diesel engine envy?

 

[Grizzly]

Just thought about this...



Where I live a lot of Furd owners drive around with CAT license plates on the front holder.



Why do you think this is? REAL diesel engine envy?

I don't believe I would like to drive around with a licence plate in the front of my truck with the words "POWERSTROKE". There's nothing flattering about a PowerJoke.

 

[surfbeetle]

Just thought about this...



Where I live a lot of Furd owners drive around with CAT license plates on the front holder.



Why do you think this is? REAL diesel engine envy?

I guess back in the '60s, Ford went to CAT with a diesel engine design and had them build it for them. From what I understand, that became the CAT 3200 series engines. That's the only Ford/CAT connection that I am aware of.

 

[HBarlow]

Just thought about this...

Where I live a lot of Furd owners drive around with CAT license plates on the front holder.

Why do you think this is? REAL diesel engine envy?

IMO that's exactly what the motivation is. Or perhaps wishful thinking?

 

[Wingate]

The CGI process does produce a more rigid finished product. As long as Ford spent the time and $$$ to get the cylinder block design right, it will actually compliment the aluminum cylinder heads. I guess I would have to be skeptical until their new engine is proven in the real world. Personally, I have NO use for a lightweight, automotive designed diesel engine.

 

[Ncostello]

Where I'm from... the Cat equipment dealership has F550 field service trucks with actual Powerstroke engines. Sure is a strange world!

 

[HBarlow]

Where I'm from... the Cat equipment dealership has F550 field service trucks with actual Powerstroke engines. Sure is a strange world!

What's strange about it? A Sick. Ohhh Navistar was the only engine available in an F-550.

At one time a small Caterpillar engine was available in Furd's F-650/750 platform but for the last several model years IIRC only a Cummins ISB was offered.

 

[JUeckert]

well, atleast one of my ford's, and one of my dodges sport a case equipment front plate. i guess lusting for a case engine wouldnt be such a bad thing, especially considering in many instances the engines that replaced them back in the mid /late 80's arent as good. see a lot of dodges with john deere and cat plates on the front also, guess they cant wait to get those black cummins engines out from under the hood, and replace them with something green or gold. of course maybe these folks sport these plate's because they operate,own, or would like to, one of those brands. go figure!

 

[Ncostello]

A Sick. Ohhh Navistar was the only engine available in an F-550.



At one time a small Caterpillar engine was available in Furd's F-650/750 platform but for the last several model years IIRC only a Cummins ISB was offered.

You are correct. And it is still is a strange world. For lots of reasons!



Or could it be these people with Powerstroke trucks and Cat front plates may own Cat equipment to make a living... and could really care less whats under the hood?



Lots of folks around here have Dodges with IH plates and decals. Its because they own farms and have hundreds of thousands of dollars wrapped up in Case IH tractors and combines. The IH decal has more to do with their equipment choice rather than their pickup.

 

[rbattelle]

Fact is today... Ford is the only people not taking bailout money. And maybe the only ones who can really do whatever it takes for success.

This is a good point, and may be the only thing that saves Ford. It was an absolutely brilliant decision - something that hasn't been too common in FMC for awhile.

I guess I'll have to be open minded about the DEF fluid then. I just don't like the thought of having to purchase yet another additive. I will say this... Ford's people absolutely refused to answer one guys question on the live chat concerning what happens when you run out of DEF. Does it limp, shut down or just keep going with reminders. All they would say was that a full tank of DEF will last 10K miles and you'll get plenty of reminders before you last 1K miles. Sounds to me like it'll go into limp mode.

The only engine manufacturer on Earth (as far as I'm aware) who is not going to urea injection is International. There is a huge debate raging in heavy industry over DEF. International is banking on being able to meet emissions with more EGR and other stuff, while everyone else (literally) is moving to urea injection.



I suspect the reason the engineer refused to answer what happens when DEF runs dry is it is illegal to run out of DEF. The EPA has put tremendous pressure on the engine manufacturers to ensure that it is nearly impossible to drive the vehicle without DEF. My suspicion is that the no-DEF "limp mode" will be SEVERELY degraded.

As far as International testing the 6. 0L for durability... I recall that engine being rushed to market (whether on Fords behalf or not I don't recall).

I'm sorry to say it but Ford has built a reputation as a group of outright liars and I refuse to believe anything that company does until I see it first hand. They told us over and over before, during, and after the 6. 0L came out that it was tested just as much as they claim the 6. 4 and 6. 7 is being tested. [Now you'll ask me for a citation but I won't be able to come up with one. :-laf ]



Ryan