Gale Banks on Modern Diesels

[ejmesser]

In most cases a 4 stroke V-8 Diesel used in a Class 8 truck has resulted in complete diaster. The later Mack V-8 wasn't too bad but the rest of them did not cut it.



I exclude Detroit Diesel 2-strokes from this as they are a completely different animal, no torque unless held to the governor, basically a fairly tough 8 cyl Diesel weed whacker motor...



I have been around trucks for my entire life and have seen a multitude of V-8 failures in the past 35-40 years where a manufacturer took a completely reliable engine currently in use in a genset, a bucket loader, and other industrial equipment and stuffed it in a Class 8 to offer more power.



Navistar, Cat, Cummins etc. all tried it and failed. Low reliability, high warranty failures, sleeves moving, too heavy, excessive fuel consumption, cooling issues, whatever.



I feel that a V-8 diesel is happy when it has a constant load and is up to operating temperature.

That's why they work so well in locomotive, gensets, pumps, whatever.



I have seen the generators in a hospital tested, I can't remember the time spec but they were each started and clocked as to how quickly they could go from start to full load.

I found it fascinating to watch and hear that poor cold diesels go through that test, a sound like no other!!!!



When you put one in a truck the constant load factor reduces to 50% pulling and the other 50% coasting downhill with 80,000lbs. + pushing on the crank , RPM changes due to shifting, slight overspeeding, driver idling it with 140 degrees block temperature all night, etc. They will not stand it.



A V-8 does not have the natural balance of an In-Line 6 and in a no fuel condition such as coasting at 2100 rpms it is trying to shake itself apart inside.



Do I want one in a pick-up truck??? Not on your life, I don't care how good they try to make me think it is!!!



Not a real technical explanation but the best I have this early in the morning... :-:-laf

Awesome post! Impressive how you made your points without sounding like a know-it-all pompous horses behind. Which is how Gale Banks comes across whenever he makes a point or advertises a product.

 

[RSamples]

Really?

You know that Gail Banks is really good with diesels, Hell he even made tractor motors go fasr. I am neew to the diesel game but did alot of research before buying my Dodge. I live in an oil field state and talked to alot of people who used diesels on a daily basis. all of them liked one of the big three for different reasons but just about to a person said that the cummins was the best motorand was the easiest to maintain. Minehas performed on the road pulling beyond expectations. would not have anything else. Love this truck!

 

[Bill Stockard]

In most cases a 4 stroke V-8 Diesel used in a Class 8 truck has resulted in complete diaster. The later Mack V-8 wasn't too bad but the rest of them did not cut it.



I exclude Detroit Diesel 2-strokes from this as they are a completely different animal, no torque unless held to the governor, basically a fairly tough 8 cyl Diesel weed whacker motor...



I have been around trucks for my entire life and have seen a multitude of V-8 failures in the past 35-40 years where a manufacturer took a completely reliable engine currently in use in a genset, a bucket loader, and other industrial equipment and stuffed it in a Class 8 to offer more power.



Navistar, Cat, Cummins etc. all tried it and failed. Low reliability, high warranty failures, sleeves moving, too heavy, excessive fuel consumption, cooling issues, whatever.



I feel that a V-8 diesel is happy when it has a constant load and is up to operating temperature.

That's why they work so well in locomotive, gensets, pumps, whatever.



I have seen the generators in a hospital tested, I can't remember the time spec but they were each started and clocked as to how quickly they could go from start to full load.

I found it fascinating to watch and hear that poor cold diesels go through that test, a sound like no other!!!!



When you put one in a truck the constant load factor reduces to 50% pulling and the other 50% coasting downhill with 80,000lbs. + pushing on the crank , RPM changes due to shifting, slight overspeeding, driver idling it with 140 degrees block temperature all night, etc. They will not stand it.



A V-8 does not have the natural balance of an In-Line 6 and in a no fuel condition such as coasting at 2100 rpms it is trying to shake itself apart inside.



Do I want one in a pick-up truck??? Not on your life, I don't care how good they try to make me think it is!!!



Not a real technical explanation but the best I have this early in the morning... :-:-laf

In my years in the diesel powered farm, construction, and medium/heavy duty truck business beinginnig in the mid-60s, I think Mike's conclusion is right on.



Bill

 

[gtoli]

I'll keep my "Tractor" engine, thank you very much

 

[meanmatt]

I think Banks is just following marketing trends . I see modded Chevy's diesel and not everywhere. Yes there are alot of hot rodded cummins on the road here. However I see alot of Stock dodges running up and down the freeway . I've talked to a few guys at the fuel pumps most do not know or care about the aftermarket . The truck does exactly what they bought it for . That is all that really matters at the end of the day . So in 20 years I'll still be driving my Dodge saying it does what I bought it for . While watching all the other guys buy a new truck everytime the new generation comes out hoping this will be the truck best.

 

[AClayton]

Awesome post! Impressive how you made your points without sounding like a know-it-all pompous horses behind. Which is how Gale Banks comes across whenever he makes a point or advertises a product.

I totally agree



Alan

 

[rbattelle]

I agree with others that the term "old tractor engine" is perhaps the best compliment I've heard for the venerable Cummins. In fact, the "old" 12v engines have a special place in my heart because, well, they're particularly "tractor-ish"!



To add to the point about V8s in locomotives, besides being a packaging issue you have to consider crankshaft rigidity when tacking lots of cylinders in a row.



Yeah, ships do it up to 14 or 16 cylinders, but they have a lot more room.



-Ryan

 

[bheiting]

Banks isn't interested in engines that actually work for a living. He wants a hot rod. No doubt he loved that POS 350 V8 diesel conversion GM dumped on the market back in the 80's.

 

[gtoli]

To add to the point about V8s in locomotives, besides being a packaging issue you have to consider crankshaft rigidity when tacking lots of cylinders in a row.

Plus, the diesel engine in a locomotive isn't directly driving the wheels, it's turning a generator that powers electric motors that drive the wheels. Still a load, but more of a constant than variable load.

 

[Wingate]

There are LOTs of v-12 and V-16 Cats used in locomotives... All of them turning multiple generators.

 

[Mhannink]

For those who know the powerboat and heavy-duty diesel engine industry, Gale Banks' name resonates with more than 50 years of experience. If there's anyone in the auto industry qualified to talk about the current state of existing technology and what might lie ahead, he is. Of course, Banks has a few strong opinions, but they're grounded in his decades of test experience and his own projects.



oh this is too funny its almost killing me. personally i dont think hes qualified to talk about ****.

 

[Wingate]

Oh yea. . Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Kubota, Deutz... . they are all standing in line to learn from his brilliance!!!. oh wait. . thats just GM... and go figure, they don't even build a diesel engine!!!!. yep. . I'm gonna listen to that idiot.

 

[Mhannink]

exactly wingate. the manufactures you just listed have been around since nearly the start of diesel engines and are building tractor engines, all of them world wide companies, and here is big shot banks promoting what i think is a relitively new player in the industry(i could be wrong) and definately not a big player saying there engine is the best. yeah... . right..... now there is no doubt the duramax has been a soild engine far better then that of ford but in my mind its hardly proven. banks said it himself the 5. 9 has been around in various forms for 35 years and its hardly changed the 6. 6 dmax has been around for 10 years and its had several revisions. which one do you think is gonna last through the ages.

 

[ChrisOlson]

Hello

Most Over the road trucks that i am aware of use the Inline 6 configuration.
and yes Train engines are a V type configuration but most of these engines are true v type diesel configurations and operate at a medium speed RPM
EMD 2 stroke operates their engines at 900 to 1000 rpm these are awesome engines
Catapillar 4 stroke operates their engines at 1200, 1400, 1600,and 1800 rpm
awesome engines as well
Cummins operates theis engines at pretty much the same as CAT above.
I have worked on and operated all f these engines.
I could bore you on the Slow Speed Large Diesels that I have worked on as well but i wont.

Our cummins Tractor engines operate at their best at around 1700 to 2000 rpm depending apon the gearing.

Every time i hook up to my Toyhauler trailer I fall into a comfort level knowing my Mighty cummins six will do what it is required to do.

I Apply my years of real world based Knowledge to my Cummins keep it warm plugged in when cold routine maintenance change oil and filters and fuel filters at a regular intervals. Address Known weaknesses in the systems that surround our engines.

and when it is time to work we go to work.

I am not a fan of the Duramax or of gale banks and his overpriced doodads. however i am interested in the Allison transmission that goes with the duramax. the GM trucks are Beautiful trucks and I would love to Borrow a Chevy duramax for about 2 months just to see the difference if there is any. but i do not think there is anyone ie dealer or general motors who will let be borrow their truck to test it out under my real world applications. so I will stick with my tried and true Cummins with 35 years of realworld experience under the Cummins truck belt

my 2 cents worth

chris

 

[Mhannink]

chris i think you are exactly right. though i have done some work with the dmax engines and i like them for a 3/4 grocery getter. id like to buy an 06 chev that when i get a family and all that we can all get in and ride in comfort and still be reliable, but when it comes to true grunt and getting going i want my old cummins work horse. what i love about the cummins is its right there as soon as you puch down on the go pedal it reponds no lag no hesitation its instant. all these other truck you have to sit there and wait for the vanes to change pitch, the turbo to wind up, the trans to shift, the computer to see it all and then decide to give you the fuel you asked for. it feel like your driving a gas engine and i dont like those

 

[TFucili]

however i am interested in the Allison transmission that goes with the duramax.



chris

Well, before my '05 CTD, I had an '04 Chevy w/their fabulous Allison, which I Lemon Lawed because of the Allison and won. It does get the power to the ground better than my 48RE, but it ain't all that. I've heard mostly good about the new Mopar built auto, but I think that if Dodge would use the Aisin from the C&C in the pickups, they'd have 'em beat.

 

[ChrisOlson]

Thanks for your insight TFucili
I suspect from my research that the Allison has improved a great deal since 2004.

I go over to the chevy durmax Allison forums and read their stuff as well they say that the best years of the D/A was 2006 and early 2007 before the new emissions crap.

I seriously would be hard pressed to buy a D/A I rode for a 1000 miles in 2009 in a 2006 3500 GM D/A CREW cab lots of room and very comfy we were not pulling anything but it was a very nice truck and very quiet as compared to my 99 cTD

but my ctd stays in my family
sorry that you had so much drama with your duramax and GM

chris

 

[Wingate]

exactly wingate. the manufactures you just listed have been around since nearly the start of diesel engines and are building tractor engines, all of them world wide companies, and here is big shot banks promoting what i think is a relitively new player in the industry(i could be wrong) and definately not a big player saying there engine is the best. yeah... . right..... now there is no doubt the duramax has been a soild engine far better then that of ford but in my mind its hardly proven. banks said it himself the 5. 9 has been around in various forms for 35 years and its hardly changed the 6. 6 dmax has been around for 10 years and its had several revisions. which one do you think is gonna last through the ages.

I would suspect that Banks jumped ship to D-max partly due to the lack of sales of his Cummins products. There are better and more economical programmers, exhaust, intakes, intercoolers. . etc. . for the Cummins than the Banks stuff... No sales, and getting his tail kicked by everybody welse in the industry... he had to go somewhere else. .

 

[brods]

Banks isn't interested in engines that actually work for a living. He wants a hot rod. No doubt he loved that POS 350 V8 diesel conversion GM dumped on the market back in the 80's.

Yep. Its all about perspective. For general automotive applications it is hard to argue with his statements.

I’m an advocate of high-speed diesel, that’s where we need to go, where we can back off the engine torque to save transmissions and keep the horsepower running strong. If we do that, we’ll have a better shot of meeting the CARB regulations, increasing durability, and getting the powertrains into more passenger vehicles. "

I am surprised that nobody has brought up his comments about Fiat. That is quite worrisome, especially given Fiat/Cummins past history:

…”What will Fiat do with Cummins — invest, cut it loose or let it die? They’re clearly the most likely to bring a small diesel into the U. S. before either Ford or GM, but beyond that, they’ve got guys like Mark Allen at Jeep and Ralph Gilles at Dodge who want to shake things up ... and not just in design. They’re the ones to watch in my book. "

It has already been announced they are going to assemble some Jeep vehicles in Italy and ship them back here. So who are those guys and what do they want to do???

 

[brods]

Plus, the diesel engine in a locomotive isn't directly driving the wheels, it's turning a generator that powers electric motors that drive the wheels. Still a load, but more of a constant than variable load.

Kind of interesting diesel electric vehicle: Oshkosh Light Concept Vehicle competes in Baja 1000 — Autoblog