Getrag woes.

[MMiller]

I can move the rearmost gear on the top shaft, for and aft a little. I assume this is probably not supposed to happen. Going out after breakfast and finish cleaning the outside of the tcase-transmission, and then start disassembly.



Michael

 

[MMiller]

Well I have the transmission cleaned externally and just pulled out the input, output, and counter shaft. The output shaft bearing is bad, has voids in the rollers where material has left the bearing. I suppose this is the reason I only heard it in OD, because of the output shaft speed being highest in OD, and highest load? I have halfway inspected the gears. Where 1st gear rides on the counter shaft there is one tooth that is boogered up a little bit, not broken or anything. The pocket bearing looks good and smooth. The counter shaft bearings look good. The shims in the rear housing have not failed, probably due to the fact there was no thin ones, just three thick shims.



I guess I'm going to get a bearing kit. I have seen nothing else that I need to replace. I figured that the coupler between the transmission and tcase would be junk, after reading of some that failed. Mine is in fine shape. Even the throw out bearing for the clutch spins nice. I'm probably going to put a little fresh grease in the throw out bearing(unless they are cheep) and bearing the trans and stick it back in. I think this winter we'll plan for a clutch upgrade.



Anybody care to comment. What else should I look at James? If you are available call me. I'm cooking the boy and I lunch right now.



Oh yeah, I think I'm going to try a different oil in the trans. At work we use Cat MTO(multipurpose tractor oil) in out powershift transmissions, differentials, finals, etc. I kinda figure that its good enough for a 16 speed power shift/countershaft trans/ and ring and pinion, in a tractor that makes 500+hp, and torque that we cannot fathom, it should work in my Getrag. It is thicker the 5W30, and thinner then 80W90. I really don't think 80W90 is a good choice for the cool/cold temps we have around here.



Michael

 

[MMiller]

Well here's an update, and something to think about. I got a good deal on a bearing kit locally. My wife drove 4 hrs round trip to the city to make sure we had parts today. I got to opening up the bearing kit. THERE WERE NO SHIMS IN THE KIT,@#$^&&* . My trans did not come with enough shims in it, to reshim the new bearings.



MAKE SURE YOU'RE GETTING SHIMS WITH YOUR BEARING KIT!!



Michael

 

[dpuckett]

My kit didnt have shims either. Guess you get what you pay for. Roger says they normally tighten back up when you put it all back together with new bearings. But he has never redone a getrag, so we will see.



-DP

 

[pepecat]

I have some shims, I got them out of my spare getrag

 

[MMiller]

After some heartaches with the lack of correct shims, and then a few problems setting up the preload, I believe I have prevailed. The truck backed out of the garage under its own power, and after I remembered to reinstall the clamp for the exhaust on the turbo, there is no noise coming from the drivetrain. Shifts seem to be the same. I put about 100 miles on it tonight just an empty pickup. Tomorrow I'll hook the truck to the tailer, load up the pulling truck and run down to Donnellson for the pulls.



Notes for those getting ready to take apart the Getrag. Try and find a supplier for shims. I did not have enough correct shims in the transmission to shim it up the way I wanted. I had to find some that would work. They will probably be fine, but the fit was just so-so. I have both the small and large shims, I guess I'll have to figure out how to get some shim packs made up, for future projects.



I first installed the new bearings on the top shaft; input, pocket, and output. I installed the shafts and set the preload to about . 005". Then I pulled the top shaft out, and heartache #1 reared it head... ... As I was removing it the springs, balls, and 'dogs' for the front syncro popped out. It was a chore to put them back in, after some grease, some grief, and a walk around the yard, they went back in.



The next night I worked on the countershaft. Installed the gears, drove in the shaft and installed the bearings. When I was at the point I had the preload set right, the gears would spin on the shaft, instead of the shaft spinning on the bearings. I called and talked with James, and he felt I did not have the bearings quite drove fully down on the shaft ends. So I went back out and carefully tapped on the bearings, and sure enough they tapped down a little and then the shaft spun on the bearings like it should. I decided to tap the bearings some more to make sure they were fully bottomed. The one new bearing inner race chipped when I hit it, effectively ruining the new bearing. None could be had the next day. So the next night I looked at the old countershaft bearings and they were ok, so I reinstalled them, the old cups, and set the shaft preload to . 001" or so, just so there was no endplay.



Last night RPA came over and I looked at his broken diff parts, and he and his friend Ryan helped me hang the 205 on the getrag, and stab the tyranny. It went right in, and they stayed and helped until the crossmember was in and everything was bolted down. Much thanks guys.



This morning I finished the installation and drove it. Then I drove it to Raps shop and put the detroit locker in his dana 80, and drove home with no noise, no leaks, and so far no heartaches. I'll run it a while and drain the oil for an inspection. I also think Iamb going to get an oil temp gauge and some fast coolers for a little relief. Also maybe work out some easy way of checking the oil level and filling it. Pulling the shifter is getting to be a pain.



Thanks to all that have helped and volunteered help. This brotherhood called the TDR is amazing. James you were a big help in all this, thank you for your time, your experience, and your willingness to help. I hope I didn't bother you too much.



I will try and bring the bad bearing to SOP for anybody that is interested in seeing it.



Michael

 

[pepecat]

glad everything went good. Did the races seat in the case tightly enough? I know mine were tight but not as tight as I would've liked to ensure no spinning of races in cases when hot.

 

[dpuckett]

Can you Loctite the outer surface of the races? I dont recall clearly, but it seems like that could be done.



Glad to see you got up and going again, Michael. I gotta get the 1-2synchro I need and get mine back together. I may jsut stick the cracked on in there and see how it runs. I can get a used transmission for $275, but I have to go up into IL to get it. Or I can buy a $225 part and still need who-knows-what for the other one. Hmmmm, what to do... ...



-DP

 

[1stgen4evr]

Well the drive to Illinois might be pleasant this time of year. Spare parts are always a good idea. I would definitely go for the extra transmission.



James

 

[MMiller]

Well, I don't think the races are supposed to fit tightly in the trans case, as you would not get good bearing adjustment if they fit tight. The shims should keep then pushed together tight enough to keep from spinning in the bore.



Look on Ebay, there is a supplier on there with a very resonable bearing/syncro kit for around $250 or so. He also has a bearing kit for about $95. I didn't get them from him, because I could get the bearing kit local for about $115. To get it soon enough, I'm sure shipping would have put his bearing kit up as much as the one I bought. I guess the long and short of it is, look on Ebay and you can get the parts, new, shipped to your house, for resonable prices.



How, 'bout I just drive to Illinios and get the spare transmission? I'll keep it nice, dry, and safe. James, is there any difference between a 2wd getrag, and a 4wd getrag? I suppose the output shaft is different?



Michael

 

[1stgen4evr]

I'll keep it nice, dry, and safe. James, is there any difference between a 2wd getrag, and a 4wd getrag? I suppose the output shaft is different?





Don't trust the weather up there, It might get all rusty. I have a much better place to keep it.



Twd - fwd, Not much difference at all. The tail housing and the output shaft is all.



Congrats Michael, you are officially a member of the Getrag Preservation Society. Probably on probation for a few 'hard' shifts but none the less a qualified member.



You did the right thing to not run it making noise. For the general membership, I am quite sure that the way the transfer case holds the output shaft will allow the fwd Getrag to run to complete destruction. If your transmission is making noise it is begging for attention. Please listen. The repair is a lot cheaper than anything else you can do.



James

 

[PToombs]

FYI- If you install a street-ell (pipe elbow) then a nipple you can fill thru the normal hole in the side of the trans. IIRC 1 qt is about an 1 1/2 inch above the bottom of the original hole. It fills a little slower but no pouring thru a bolt hole!

 

[MMiller]

Congrats Michael, you are officially a member of the Getrag Preservation Society. Probably on probation for a few 'hard' shifts but none the less a qualified member.



You did the right thing to not run it making noise. For the general membership, I am quite sure that the way the transfer case holds the output shaft will allow the fwd Getrag to run to complete destruction. If your transmission is making noise it is begging for attention. Please listen. The repair is a lot cheaper than anything else you can do.



James

Ahh, no hard shifts for a while, and I haven't even spun the tires on pavement yet... ... It will probably be a while for that.



I know what would have happened if I ran it much longer. The bearing was rapidly failing, and it would have either locked up and spun on the shaft, or in the housing, or the rollers would have came out and stuck in between gears and caused all kinds of carnage. Every revolution, especailly in OD the bearing was eroding, and I'm glad I quit when I did.



I do wish I had a better selection of shims. Does anybody know where I guy could go to have shims made. What I would really like to do next time, is come up with the deminsion of shims to set the preload, and have one, thick, heavy shim made up. Then the distortion due to thin shims failing would be deminished. Granted it would take longer, but that would be the overall correct way to do it for a long term repair, IMHO.



I'm going to look into the street elbow, but with exhaust and a drive shaft on the right side of the transmission(and 4" exhaust going on in the future, I'm looking at doing something with the left side where theres more room. I'm actually considering putting in two pipe threaded holes in the PTO cover, then screwing in two 90* pointed at each other, one near the top, and one near the bottom, then a clear plastic tube connecting the two, for a cite gauge. Very easy to check then. The truck no longer gets in offroad situations, just cornfields and pastures, so I think any problems would non existant.



I did put the cover gasket in, and had the transmission in before you replied to my email James, the transmission seems to shift a little harder now, I don't think its from my oil change, I'm wondering if its from the increased deminsion from the cover to the case. I think when I do a clutch this winter, the gasket it going bye-bye for some sealant.



Michael

 

[pepecat]

I recall mysteryman saying you can make shims out of aluminum cans?!

 

[1stgen4evr]

make shims out of aluminum cans?!



Indeed you can do that but it sure is nice to have correct fitting, nice looking shims. I have used brass shim stock as well as aluminum. As long as you use the thick shim against the bearing, it will work. Or at least has for me.



James