Heavy Duty Series: Why gas over diesel?

[Crunch]

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of the Heavy Duty/Super Duty trucks running gas engines. After seeing about 10 of them on the way home from work last week I got on the CB and asked the truckers why this would be the case, since the diesels are more powerful, get better fuel economy and last longer. One trucker came back and said it was because the insurance companies will drop you if you tow with a diesel. I'm not sure why this would be the case, and am beginning to doubt that this is true. If I was an insurance agent I think the diesels would be the only towing pickup I'd insure. If I made my living with the truck the $4K or so more that the diesel costs would be minimal over the payment period and would have paid for itself in fuel costs the first year. Anybody know the facts on this? Something ain't right about this...

 

[KCJackson]

Depends on what you're doing with the truck. Some organizations in the Snow Belt might stick with gasoline for its cold start performance. Some want/need the extra rpm range or the top end horsepower. There will be those who are more comfortable maintaining a gas engine; they can do it quickly themselves in the driveway compared to not having the knowledge or experience to service a diesel. For some, the purchase price IS a factor because they will run the truck into the ground anyway and resale is not an issue.

 

[n5ifi]

It's not hard to understand if you were the owner of large fleet of small trucks. The cost to replace a diesel motor that jon boy blew up last week far exceeds the cost to replace the gas motor that jon blew up last week. The owner also realizes that the differences in bills pays for the fuel differences over the short lifetime of the truck. I'm guessing that the owner probably purchases a new truck after he has written off everything he can on the old truck. (depreciation) This is just a guess and I'm sure I'm going to get hammered on this. hehehe And next week when Jon boys brother runs his truck off into the lake... ... ..... u start to follow me?

I know several men with successful businesses but have never thought to ask them why they use gas motors. They always buy the same ol trucks though... ... ... . Ford

 

[John - K5AWO]

One of my son's clients is in the landscaping business. This guy only runs Ford diesels even though their maintenance is higher.



When I asked him why, he said that he can buy a Ford diesel of the same age for half the price of a Dodge and that he can afford a lot of maintenance before it even comes close to the cost of a Dodge.



PJ, just grins and says "Pop, that's bread and butter for me. Don't talk him out of it!"



I guess when you consider who the typical landscape emloyee is here in Arizona, that has some merit. They never, but never say anything about a truck that needs fixing. Strange mentality, but there it is.

 

[Midnite]

My dad had a bad experience with owning a diesel over thirty years ago, and despite seeing how well my two Dodge's have run for me (even starting with no problems in -30 F temps), will *never* consider owning another diesel vehicle again. I don't understand it, but some people just don't like diesel vehicles. Oh well...



Mike

 

[Rman]

face it guys, diesels used to be terrible engines. Everything about them sucked, fortunately technology has changed it's people that haven't.

 

[n5ifi]

HUH

 

[jersey diesel]

GM tried to convert gas engines in cars to diesels. They were poorl designed and ran terribly. This occurred when their was a gas shortage and people wanted fuel efficientcy. This poor attempt by GM left bad mark on diesels for many people.

 

[n5ifi]

Oh yes, I wasn't thinking about those engines. I was thinking about tractors, industrial and class 8 types. (excluding Detroit) I can see where that would have left a bad taste for those diesel owners.

I was in Germany last year and I had a french rental car. I drove that car for a couple of days before I realized that it was diesel powered. There was no diesel smell at all... When I filled it up with fuel I filled it with German bio-diesel. That part of Europe is way ahead of us.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard this line of BS: "GM tried to convert gas engines in cars to diesels. "



The GM 5. 7/6. 2 diesel engines... DID NOT START LIFE AS GASSERS!!!



Matt

 

[n5ifi]

Well I think your correct. What they were refering to was the basic deminsional design of the motor started out as a gasser. The diesel version was highly beefed up of-course and had a lot of differences. I believe that we are splitting hairs here though. I've seen many big inch GAS race engines using the diesel crank. (offset ground of-course)

 

[klenger]

When I first started looking at Dodge trucks with the diesel option in 2001, I just assumed that the 5. 9L diesel was a spin-off of the 5. 9L V8 gasser. It didn't take me too long to figure out I was wrong after looking at the brochure.

 

[y-knot]

I think it's more economics then anything else. To the business manager, a truck is a truck. He could care less what brand he buys, and what motor is in it, it's all about cost per mile. Most go with Ford because they are cheaper and offer great fleet pricing. As for the engine, there is not enough difference to warrant the extra 5-6 thousand dollars to go diesel. The large gas engines get almost the same as a diesel when towing, repairs are cheaper, and fuel prices are also about the same. Most fleets are leased, they do not care about long term, 3 to 4 years and they will turn it over, and get another one. What brand they replace it with will most likely be determined by who has the best deal. The residual value at terms end for a diesel is not enough to offset the extra payed, you shell out 5-6000 for the diesel, and get only 1000-1500 back. There are some contractors that do run diesels, most that I know of are in the construction business, mainly excavation. Why do they use them?? I would say it has something to do with the fact that they work mainly with diesel power equipment and feel comfortable with them. The fact they they might run off-road diesel fuel through them might also have something to do with it also??

Put yourself in the position on a bean counter or owner. You maintain a fleet of 100 truck, and turn-over 33 each year. You buy all 2500 series trucks at $21,000 each or $693,000. 00 . The same 2500 series truck with diesel cost you $4,500. 00 more or $148,500 for the bunch. In lease terms the extra $4,500. 00 more per truck will run you an extra $4,125. 00 every month. Also factor in the extra insurance cost, and you will see that diesels don't exactly make the best choice for many business's.

For the normal truck owner, diesels are purely an extra luxury. You don't realy need the diesel, nor will it ever pay for itself, in fact most would contend that they spend much more on their diesel truck then they would have if it were a gaser. Most seem to view their diesel truck as a well earned bonus, something they always wanted. It almost becomes a hobby for some, me included, I figure many add all the newest duedads because they feel like their truck will be around for awhile, and they are probalby right. I sure hope so.

 

[Mad Bomber]

Why??

My dad ownes his bussiness and the guys that work for him plain just do give a rip about the trucks. They have a hard time just to check the oil:--) Why would he buy a nice truck.

 

[Deezul1]

HoleshotHolset

Check the Chevy Diesels in cars that were made in the late 70s, early 80s and they were converted gas engines. They had been beefed up but not near enough. I have a friend that had a new Oldsmobile with one in it and it broke the crankshaft at 26,000 miles. I also had a GMC Jimmy with one in it, what a POS.

 

[gds3076]

something they always wanted. It almost becomes a hobby for some, me included, I figure many add all the newest duedads because they feel like their truck will be around for awhile, and they are probalby right. I sure hope so.

y-not



I'm with you, I have always wanted a diesel and now that I have it I love it. Your right about it becoming a hobby. I love tinckering and learning more about my truck, there is so much that I do not understand

 

[Speedo]

Originally posted by HoleshotHolset

If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard this line of BS: "GM tried to convert gas engines in cars to diesels. "



The GM 5. 7/6. 2 diesel engines... DID NOT START LIFE AS GASSERS!!!



Matt

The 6. 2 diesel engine was actually a Detriot Diesel design and had no basis in any gas engine. The 5. 7 diesel engine however was derived from the 5. 7 liter Olds engine, while it wasn't actually made from gas engine pieces it was a gas engine design that was beefed up. For a short period of time the Olds diesel engine block was used to make NHRA pro stock gas engines. The 6. 2 and the 5. 7 GM diesels have nothing in common including the bolt pattern on the back of the block.



Gus

 

[HoleshotHolset]

"The 5. 7 diesel engine however was derived from the 5. 7 liter Olds engine, while it wasn't actually made from gas engine pieces it was a gas engine design that was beefed up. "



Thank you!!



Matt

 

[Crunch]

Originally posted by y-knot

For the normal truck owner, diesels are purely an extra luxury. You don't realy need the diesel, nor will it ever pay for itself, in fact most would contend that they spend much more on their diesel truck then they would have if it were a gaser.

Are you sure this is correct? I agree with the rest of your post, but I believe fuel costs would make a diesel cost-competitive, if not cheaper in the long run than a gas engine.



Using my truck as an example I have 25K mile on it after one year. Becaue I drive fast I get about 17-18MPG. Going with the lower figure I have run just under 1500 gallons of fuel through the truck. 1470 gallons, more precisely. If I had a gasser that got 10-12MPG (and going with the higher figure here) I would have run about 2083 gallons of fuel through it.



From a cost perspective that 1470 gallons of fuel cost me about $2200, using an average fuel cost of $1. 50/gallon. Using $1. 75/gallon for a gas average my gas costs would have been just over $3600 for the same 25K miles. That's a difference of $1400/year. Using those simple numbers and calculations the diesel should pay for itself in 4 years, which is also about the time a gasser will start costing you a lot more money (assuming 25K miles per year).



Granted, this doesn't take into account other maintenance costs or repair costs, but aren't they also cheaper for the most part than for a gas engine. I do oil changes every 5,000 miles vs. every 3,000 on a gas engine. Fuel filter gets changed every 10,000 miles. But even over 10 years those costs are relatively low. What am I missing?

 

[akiren]

I traded my 02 SD v10 for my dodge a couple of months ago. The cost per mile went down from the start. I tow a boat and trailer 6500# across the desert and through the mountains. v10 towing 7-8 mpg, L600 11-12 towing, v10 city 10mpg, L600 14mpg, v10 HWY 14mpg (good day), L600 17-18. V10 fuel $2. 45gal, L600 $1. 99gal. V10 more moving parts less HP, less TORQUE, L600 less moving parts, more HP, more TORQUE. L600 more dependable= peace of mind. Not so much as a hobbyfor me, as is making a better choice.